![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
![]()
Post
#26
|
|
Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 ![]() |
Yeah Kerenshara's wonderful answers aside I don't buy into any of this. Luckily I don't have to. Considering how massive I picture the SINless population to be the death of actual cash is just too hard for me to buy. Less, harder to get, devalued? Absolutely. All electronic? B U L L S H I T. Even with disposable commlinks, and other hand waving make believe suggestions and excuses I just can't buy into it.
And like Eidolon mentions, it's just a game. So I can happily ignore the crap out of much of the wireless garbage SR4 tries to sell and get down to stuff that's actually fun for my group. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#27
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 946 Joined: 16-September 05 From: London Member No.: 7,753 ![]() |
Yeah Kerenshara's wonderful answers aside I don't buy into any of this. Luckily I don't have to. Considering how massive I picture the SINless population to be the death of actual cash is just too hard for me to buy. Less, harder to get, devalued? Absolutely. All electronic? B U L L S H I T. Even with disposable commlinks, and other hand waving make believe suggestions and excuses I just can't buy into it. You're more likely to get bartering for goods and services in the SINless population, and possible anywhere outside the metroplexes, since they probably won't be printing any hard currency. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#28
|
|
Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 ![]() |
Every barter system eventually stabilizes, and some sort of "currency" is agreed upon. In the prison system it's bars of soap. Since convicts can't have cash money, and are supposed to use an electronic accounting system circumventing it means using what they have access to. One soap is about one dollar. Soap is the new money.
2070 would be no different. Each region, district or whatever would settle on something, and that would become the anchor of the bartering system. In a world where anyone can already ruin thousands, even millions of peoples lives with the stroke of a key I fail to see how 2070 would produce less pissed, overly intelligent too much time having computer pricks and not more. Maybe that's not how your game runs, and that's cool. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#29
|
|
Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,894 Joined: 11-May 09 Member No.: 17,166 ![]() |
Yeah Kerenshara's wonderful answers aside I don't buy into any of this. Luckily I don't have to. Considering how massive I picture the SINless population to be the death of actual cash is just too hard for me to buy. Less, harder to get, devalued? Absolutely. All electronic? B U L L S H I T. Even with disposable commlinks, and other hand waving make believe suggestions and excuses I just can't buy into it. You know, you can just as easily "look the other way" and stick with the old CredSticks for "bank" accounts, as opposed to "credit" accounts. When real money changes hands, there needs to be a hardware confirmation of some kind. But anybody can order garbage online with their smartphone and a Visa card, right? Certified Credsticks can make stick-to-stick transfers directly, so there's no reason the SiNless would abandon them, and EVERY comlink has a credstick reader. They are, in many ways, the "cash" of SR4; Paper Scrip has become somewhat oddball while comlinks and credit accounts have picked up where old standard (non-certified) credsticks left off. Why carry a wad of Plasper (Plastic Paper) currency when something the size of a USB flash drive will do? (As a side note, yet another area where the original writers were oddly clairvoyant re: credsticks/flash drives) They're hard enough to forge that the Governments are cool with them staying around, and even skeptics on the street without a SiN should be confident in the funds on their 'stick. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#30
|
|
Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 ![]() |
Yeah there's lot's of options. In reality I don't see why all of them can't exist side by side-barter in some spots, cash in others, credsticks in still others, and wireless cred in others. I mean it's a big world right?
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#31
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 946 Joined: 16-September 05 From: London Member No.: 7,753 ![]() |
Yeah there's lot's of options. In reality I don't see why all of them can't exist side by side-barter in some spots, cash in others, credsticks in still others, and wireless cred in others. I mean it's a big world right? I read a Traveller article in White Dwarf, many years ago which talks about this... ...They had multiple ways of carrying credit - rich people would have subdermal chips, most people would have cards, people in non-technical places would have credit bars that are basically used up as their value decreases. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#32
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 11-September 09 From: America / Australia. Member No.: 17,625 ![]() |
I flat don't think you could build a functional system the way you describe. I used to be a network admin for the county I live in, and I can tell you from personal experience that this is pretty much exactly how things work now; we provide wi-fi access within our government centre, and that system can be accessed and controlled from the primary network but not the other way around. This is intentional, and there's physically no way to break into the primary system from within the wireless range; it's not configured that way. If you want access to the main hub, you need to be stationed at a terminal within the building. If we can do that now, it's only going to be easier in the Sixth World. -milk. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#33
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 ![]() |
We do the same thing, and the critical issue you miss is that there is a firewall that provides this separation. In SR this is not a serious obstacle.
The other critical difference that is often overlooked is that "web browsing" in SR is 95% of what an electronic attacker wants to do in the real world, which is run THEIR code on YOUR host. That's what the icon is. The only thing other thing they need to do is priv escalation. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#34
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 27-July 09 From: Aurora Barrens, Denver Member No.: 17,433 ![]() |
Wow, I love this topic. I do this stuff for a living. I work with payment card data security every day.
1)All credit transactions eventually hit a secure node. In the real world, these are secured through multiple layers. While nothing is unassailable, no one short of superman (or a motivated group of insiders) will seriously dent these security strictures. In game you are slaved to zurich orbital or some other really scary (say system 18 firewall 18 with rating 18 black ice and the best of the best in spiders running). 2)Credit companies don't feel pain. In order to steal massive amounts of money, you need to be stealing in a pattern, and patterns are recognizable. It may take a week, a month, or 20 years, but if you steal too much they will find you. This is both real world and shadowrun. If you steal dinner, it gets written off as petty theft and ignored (after being cataloged through a heuristics database). If you do the exact same theft for too long they will be waiting for you. 3)Money in the real world is all data. The federal reserve in the United States catalogs large transfers of money through banks and other monetary organizations. Money travels along secured networks dedicated for this purpose. These wires never touch ordinary data, and the security on them is also scary. The pathetic amount of cash running around is a minor blip. 100's of trillions of dollars bounce around these secured networks daily, while there are only a few billion in real cash floating at the same time. I am assuming that in 2070 these networks still exist. So I buy my goods, my comlink automatically uses multi-factor authentication to talk to the banking system through the shop network. Any transaction data is encrypted several times during the conversation, and is all done using disposable passwords to make the entire thing harder to spoof. I would set the whole thing at rating 6 to steal from the shop keeper. Encrypt 6, firewall 6, track 6, whatever might be deemed to be needed here. After all it is basically a dumb terminal slaved to a bank that can afford SOTA security. From here the pretend money exists in a bank database somewhere. When the transaction happens, a few bits travel from one database record to another probably they are ultimately in the same database. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#35
|
|
panda! ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 ![]() |
one thing to consider here, people, is that the matrix history is closer or the US phone network of the 80's, then the internet of the 90's.
that is, the first cyberpunk games modeled their matrix systems and hackers/crackers/deckers on the phone phreaks, people that in one way or another gained access to the switching systems of the phone network, big iron servers and similar. these where systems that was protected more thru obscurity then true security until things started to reach the press in big type. and i suspect that any kind of money related systems will have their security tired, so that only the most determined and paranoid will be able to really reach that great vault in the sky and tap it for money. the food and drink dispensers will be relatively secure against physical and matrix break-ins of a casual nature, but there will be a percentage of kids and adults that knows a way to trick some brands to release their goodies. then comes people that play around with online shopping services, either by rerouting deliveries or by tricking the systems to send out objects without paying for them. beyond that one really start messing with things like forging certified cred, banking systems and big corp internal financial structures. and each step will have more difficult security and checks to keep the riffraff out. hell, the criminals themselves (tho given recent personal reading material on the nature of money and banks, who the criminal really is have become somewhat blurred) may elect to not spread their info to thin, both to keep a status of elite-ness, and also to make sure their tricks keep working for as long as possible (ones a exploit hit the news and info systems, its close to worthless, as any proper admin will device ways to close or limit the risk). hell, why risk messing with a big bank, when you can stuff a product in a faraday bag and walk past the alarm sensors? just wear good running shoes if the bag fails its job (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) |
|
|
![]()
Post
#36
|
|
Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,141 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 2,048 ![]() |
First of all money is a group of numbers located in numerous databanks, your money when in the bank does not exist outside of the balance sheet. When you take money out of the ATM, it is not strictly yours, rather it is owned by the country and/or the bank.
The keystone balance information of your account is stored in your bank's databases. Secondary sources for your balance information can include commlinks and credsticks. Secondary sources for your balance information are dependent on the degree of freedom your bank allows for the use of secondary sources to have your balance information. Further details your account may store are: membership discounts, loans and credit information. Ultimately, the bank database holding the keystone balance information is the final authority of any transaction. However, this information may be verified not-immediately, instead allowing your credit details (if existent) to extend you a credited sum of the purchases which will be billed from your account during the next banking day. EDIT: Orcus, beautiful post. Thank you. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#37
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 27-July 09 From: Aurora Barrens, Denver Member No.: 17,433 ![]() |
What I posted earlier missed a few points.
When you move money, the transaction looks like a math equation. It will be a bank routing number plus some internal tracking number plus a monetary amount. If you somehow intercepted the packet on the fly, all you would have is the two end points. You cannot take that to the stuffer shack and buy a soycaf. You could theoretically change the destination bank by man in the middle, but then the codes would not match up. At the end of the day, the nuyen still needs to end up in a bank, and they all cooperate to catch bad guys. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#38
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 ![]() |
Part of issue is that in SRworld they don't cooperate. The Ares bank doesn't play nicely with the Aztechnology bank, any more than their security services do.
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#39
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 946 Joined: 16-September 05 From: London Member No.: 7,753 ![]() |
Hmmm
Kinda screws the whole hackers have it easy thing, really. Although, of course, that's only been for people to play RPGs and computer games - 'cos otherwise they can't really do the stuff hackers do in fiction, and would cry. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#40
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 946 Joined: 16-September 05 From: London Member No.: 7,753 ![]() |
Interestingly enough, there's a story on the BBC website about local communities printing and using their own money.
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#41
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 27-July 09 From: Aurora Barrens, Denver Member No.: 17,433 ![]() |
Part of issue is that in SRworld they don't cooperate. The Ares bank doesn't play nicely with the Aztechnology bank, any more than their security services do. You are missing the point. None of these banks are allowed to just print their own Nuyen. The Corporate court would manage this. All of these banks have to cooperate to some degree. Ares can hate Aztech all they want, but they have to cooperate with them to process financial transactions. Otherwise a person who has accounts at the Ares bank could not shop at the stuffer shack or the azmart or buy the new Mitsuhama computer system they wanted. I suspect that Zurich Orbital acts as a clearing house between these transactions. Regardless of how it all works. The fundamental rule of metagaming says "Players shall always be screwed if they get too greedy". Since there are some very good reasons in this case to justify it, you need not be ashamed. As GM's when the technomancer or hacker says "Hey, I'm gonna steal a few million from the bank," you may nod and smile serenely knowing that a nice session or two of As the World Explodes will soon be starring the hacker as he tries to get away from everyone. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#42
|
|
Deus Absconditus ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 ![]() |
This is an EXCELLENT point. I know a lot of players that assume all the AAAs have the same level of resources in each field (roughly) to play with. But the AAAs have to deal with each other based on (if nothing else) the actual land they hold. Aztechnology, having a really weak hold in eastern europe and Russia, probably has to deal with Saeder-Krupp & Evo any time they need an abundance of Chromium, due to to most of their territory being low in Chromium deposits, and since you can't effectively make jet engines without it, they wouldn't have much of an aircraft division unless they bought extra chromium from other megas. Similarly, I don't imagine Shiawase's reactor division would be able to make much use of their reactors unless they dealt with other corps to get the uranium they need to power those reactors.
Which, naturally, leads to land-based power struggles, mercenaries, shadowruns, and all that other fun stuff we play the game for. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#43
|
|
Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,894 Joined: 11-May 09 Member No.: 17,166 ![]() |
You are missing the point. None of these banks are allowed to just print their own Nuyen. Quite the contrary! Each of the megas prints their own paper scrip, and the value in terms of Nuyen is variable usually depending on stock price of the day, and can fluctuate wildly. That's canon all the way back, and still is. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#44
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 385 Joined: 20-August 07 Member No.: 12,766 ![]() |
Part of issue is that in SRworld they don't cooperate. The Ares bank doesn't play nicely with the Aztechnology bank, any more than their security services do. You've already taken a few licks for this, but just to pile it on - I disagree that the banking branches of the Triple-A megas wouldn't get along, with or without the intenvention of the corporate courts. Sure, each corp is going to have their own scrip, and possibly exchange rates, but they're still going to honor exchanges and transactions between their branches and holdings. It would be essentially impossible for them to do business if they didn't, extraterritorial sovereignty or not. That cooperation is a basic level of economic lubrication.Wachovia doesn't have any reason to promote or facilitate Chase's business, but they'll still do business with each other as required by the customers, particularly if it involves acquiring more money. Better believe they'd do it whether or not the Fed said to or not. I think people take the "corporate enemies" motif to the extreme.. that really only extends to the shadowrunning aspects of the megacorps, like extradition. They're still businesses. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#45
|
|
panda! ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 ![]() |
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#46
|
|
panda! ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 ![]() |
Interestingly enough, there's a story on the BBC website about local communities printing and using their own money. and that just shows what kind of bitch the concept of money really is... lets just say that modern economists still do not agree on the base concept of money, tho you will find few that admits to that, at least not in the mainstream... in the grand scheme of things, value have little to do with it, as in the end, its just numbers. however, the big thing is this, how large shall the total sum of these numbers be. and that one becomes even more interesting ones one start poking at things like banks only having 10% of the money they loan out, effectively printing money whenever they loan them out... |
|
|
![]()
Post
#47
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 ![]() |
You've already taken a few licks for this, but just to pile it on - I disagree that the banking branches of the Triple-A megas wouldn't get along, with or without the intenvention of the corporate courts. Sure, each corp is going to have their own scrip, and possibly exchange rates, but they're still going to honor exchanges and transactions between their branches and holdings. It would be essentially impossible for them to do business if they didn't, extraterritorial sovereignty or not. That cooperation is a basic level of economic lubrication. So therefore it's impossible for a really large trading organization or nation to not play this game? This would make it impossible for the 3rd largest economy in the world to use a currency that isn't freely convertible on the world market? Which makes it kind of strange that the yuan actually isn't convertible and China has pretty severe restrictions on currency movement. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#48
|
|
Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,141 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 2,048 ![]() |
kzt, *sigh*
Chinese banking overview, dated, 2001. http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/publi...UNPAN002823.pdf The US wants more currency movement from China in the hopes of maintaining a strong dollar to the Yuan, there is also hope that a weak Yuan would keep investors in dollars and not move to utilising the Yuan. In 2005 China's central bank announced that China's currency, the yuan, would be revalued by 2.1 percent against the dollar. China's central bank also declared that the yuan would be permitted to fluctuate up or down by a maximum of 0.3 percent per day, as measured against a basket of currencies. The political leap derives from the fact that China not only revalued but also agreed to adopt a much more flexible currency regime. The small economic step comes from the fact that China initially increased the value of its currency, which most economists believe is undervalued by between 15 and 30 percent, by a relatively minuscule 2.1 percent. For all practical purposes, a change of that magnitude would have virtually no effect on the rising structural trade imbalances that afflict both China and the United States. While the yuan is convertible on the current account, which covers trade, China still restricts most capital account deals and analysts say full convertibility could be years away. China wants a slow, methodical adjustment of its current account convertibility rules. Any change would be tailored to fit China's economic conditions, the "maturity" of its financial markets, and risk managing skills of market players. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#49
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 27-July 09 From: Aurora Barrens, Denver Member No.: 17,433 ![]() |
Quite the contrary! Each of the megas prints their own paper scrip, and the value in terms of Nuyen is variable usually depending on stock price of the day, and can fluctuate wildly. That's canon all the way back, and still is. Corp script is not Nuyen. I can print money anytime I want. The issue is who will accept it. Mitsuhama script will most likely not be accepted at the Azmart. A later comment addressed China. China really does play the same game. They need to accept dollars or yen or whatever, or they will not be able to sell their products. They do not play nicely with the Yuan, but that is their internal script. This equates to Wu Xing accepting Nuyen from Ares. It then pays its employees in Wu Xing corporate script. The employee places the corp script into the corp bank. The next time the employee goes to Hong Kong to purchase a new Mitsuhama Comm Link, or buy food at a restaurant, he uses his comm link to make a purchase. The Mitsuhama reseller then offers a transaction to the comm of the customer in whatever currency he is willing to accept. The customer authenticates through the Mitsuhama dealer to the Wu Xing Bank. The Wu Xing bank informs the Employee of the exchange rate if currencies differ, authorizes a payment either directly, or in the event that it is a large transaction, through Zurich Orbital. The Mitsuhama bank accepts the payment and transmits a receipt of funds to the seller. Seller and Buyer each manage to complete .3% of one blink of an eye while this process is occurring. Millions of nanoseconds pass before they realize that the transaction was successful. Both smile at one another and go on about their business. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#50
|
|
ghostrider ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 ![]() |
|
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 9th May 2025 - 06:21 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.