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#26
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 483 Joined: 16-September 08 From: Madison, WI Member No.: 16,349 ![]() |
I think it'd be interesting to have some upgrades for AI's that you could buy and install in their home node. It'd be kind of like cyberware for the AI character. Maybe that'd be something good for someone to submit to the Dumpshock Data Haven publication.
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#27
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Cybernetic Blood Mage ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 ![]() |
Sure I see that point, but in a fight between "equals" I'll put my money on whichever one is on their "home turf" so to speak, and I haven't seen anything that says a "human level" AI is somehow inferior to humans and in my opinion the fluff disagrees with the rules, it is supposed to be hard and dangerous to go "AI Hunting".
the_real_elwood the only problem with that is that any upgrades to the AI's home node is only going to be useful while the AI is there, which is going to be almost never. |
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#28
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
Honestly, I don't even think that the biggest weakness of an AI is the fact that it can't get all the amazing gear that a metahuman hacker can. I think it is the fact that they must put themselves so directly in the line of fire to do what a hacker does with only a minimal amount of risk. If a node gets turned off while a hacker is in it, he suffers some dumpshock, goes 'ouch' and starts doing other stuff. If a node gets turned off while an AI is in it, it is effectively dead until the node gets turned back on and reconnected to the matrix.
In other words, AI hunting is really really easy, you just get them to come into your commlink or some node you have physical control over, and then turn it off and scrap the thing. I remember how there are some lifestyle disadvantages along the lines of 'an AI has taken up residence in your home node.' and I can't help but think "Okay, I turn it off and buy a replacement, problem solved for a handful of nuyen." |
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#29
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Cybernetic Blood Mage ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 ![]() |
True, but that doesn't really brother me since it makes sense that a critter living in the 'Trix would have the same dangers that we would when fighting something from the fourth dimension, besides, it probably isn't easy to trick an AI into a Node that you can simply pull the plug on.
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#30
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
True, but that doesn't really brother me since it makes sense that a critter living in the 'Trix would have the same dangers that we would when fighting something from the fourth dimension, besides, it probably isn't easy to trick an AI into a Node that you can simply pull the plug on. Well, they can't -do- much to you without doing so, so it might not be all that difficult. |
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#31
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Cybernetic Blood Mage ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 ![]() |
Touche'
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#32
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,444 Joined: 18-April 08 Member No.: 15,912 ![]() |
I'm just currious what keeps and A.I. from having 2 matix windows always open at once, 1 to the target node and one to a safe node with a massive firewall and the like, so that if the target node is ever shut down he gets kicked into the safe node by default?
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#33
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,444 Joined: 18-April 08 Member No.: 15,912 ![]() |
I'm just currious what keeps and A.I. from having 2 matix windows always open at once, 1 to the target node and one to a safe node with a massive firewall and the like, so that if the target node is ever shut down he gets kicked into the safe node by default?
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#34
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
I'm just currious what keeps and A.I. from having 2 matix windows always open at once, 1 to the target node and one to a safe node with a massive firewall and the like, so that if the target node is ever shut down he gets kicked into the safe node by default? The fact that moving around on the matrix isn't like using firefox. A persona must actually enter a node in order to access anything from that node or do anything on the node. For metahumans that persona is a program that is generated through their commlink (And can be regenerated easily if it gets trapped), for an AI, the AI itself is the persona that must go from node to node, and it can't be backed up because it is too complex. The reason it can't just hop to another node when the current node is either turned off or disconnected, is that the only way to know that the node is turned off or disconnected is for it to actually be so, by which point it is too late (No magic my 'someone's hand is near the power cord' senses to warn an AI that the power to the node is about to go) |
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#35
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,444 Joined: 18-April 08 Member No.: 15,912 ![]() |
I believe there are actually rules for having access to 2 nodes at once, unless that was an optional rule posted here at some point.
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#36
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
I believe there are actually rules for having access to 2 nodes at once, unless that was an optional rule posted here at some point. I'm guessing you mean the 'connections' thing. Having a connection to a node and actually being in a node are two very different things. A connection is like having IM capabilities while actually being in a node is like being in the house of the person you are IMing. Sure you can talk to the person via IM, but you can't affect their house in any way. |
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#37
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,444 Joined: 18-April 08 Member No.: 15,912 ![]() |
I'm guessing you mean the 'connections' thing. Having a connection to a node and actually being in a node are two very different things. A connection is like having IM capabilities while actually being in a node is like being in the house of the person you are IMing. Sure you can talk to the person via IM, but you can't affect their house in any way. SR4 pg 218 would seem to differ with you. At least in my reading of it. It seems to indicate you can engage in cyber combat in multiple nodes and be attacked in those multiple nodes simultaneously. This implies you do not have to be present in a node to effect or be effected by it. So why couldn't an AI simply stay in one relatively safe comlink carried on or in another party member, and reach out from it to do his thing in the world at large. |
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#38
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
SR4 pg 218 would seem to differ with you. At least in my reading of it. It seems to indicate you can engage in cyber combat in multiple nodes and be attacked in those multiple nodes simultaneously. This implies you do not have to be present in a node to effect or be effected by it. So why couldn't an AI simply stay in one relatively safe comlink carried on or in another party member, and reach out from it to do his thing in the world at large. Because a commlink can generate multiple personas, an AI is a persona and cannot copy itself. |
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#39
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panda! ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 ![]() |
Because a commlink can generate multiple personas, an AI is a persona and cannot copy itself. try page 110 of unwired, and the text on node movement. i think the end problem is that AI's are not really fleshed out, as they are a new element of SR (the older ones where more like boo scary gods with no stats, only gm fiat). there are also some qualities hiding in unwired, and priced in a runner companion sidebar (i am tempted to say that one should be able to buy those as the character evolves, not just at generation, as the AI is code, not flesh). |
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#40
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,444 Joined: 18-April 08 Member No.: 15,912 ![]() |
Thanks, I was pretty sure I'd read this somewhere before, I just couldn't find the reference. So an A.I. can be carried in a runners com link and do their hacking on the fly then.
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#41
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panda! ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 ![]() |
yep, it may even make said comlink its home node.
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#42
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Cybernetic Blood Mage ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 ![]() |
However, bare in mind that Unwired needs some serious errata in order to bring it into line with Fourth Edition 2.0 so the "advanced rules" needs some tweaking.
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#43
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panda! ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 ![]() |
yea, i think there is a contradiction between agent movement in SR4A and unwired, tho personally i vote for the unwired way, even if it brings some level of asshattery in terms of agent abuse. At least that way the AI's are not limited compared to meat users in terms of connectivity...
tho i guess they could say that the SR4A limit is only for a properly limited agent, while AI's and unlimited agents behave like unwired... |
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#44
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 483 Joined: 16-September 08 From: Madison, WI Member No.: 16,349 ![]() |
Honestly, I don't even think that the biggest weakness of an AI is the fact that it can't get all the amazing gear that a metahuman hacker can. I think it is the fact that they must put themselves so directly in the line of fire to do what a hacker does with only a minimal amount of risk. If a node gets turned off while a hacker is in it, he suffers some dumpshock, goes 'ouch' and starts doing other stuff. If a node gets turned off while an AI is in it, it is effectively dead until the node gets turned back on and reconnected to the matrix. In other words, AI hunting is really really easy, you just get them to come into your commlink or some node you have physical control over, and then turn it off and scrap the thing. I remember how there are some lifestyle disadvantages along the lines of 'an AI has taken up residence in your home node.' and I can't help but think "Okay, I turn it off and buy a replacement, problem solved for a handful of nuyen." Can't an AI only be killed by attacking it in its home node? Wouldn't a smart AI have a wicked firewall'd home node so it can go out and engage in matrix activities without being put in serious danger? The AI program's code is physically installed on a machine that actually exists somewhere. How can you permanently damage it by attacking its manifestation on another machine elsewhere? |
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#45
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panda! ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 ![]() |
well you can lure its running copy into a node, then isolate said node, you can kill it.
see page 90, runners companion, last section of realignment and restoration. |
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#46
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,705 Joined: 5-October 09 From: You are in a clearing Member No.: 17,722 ![]() |
Complete immunity to biofeedback is pretty exceptional, but that's not the matter at hand. The matter here is that you're all thinking incorrectly on how an AI should operate. A straight off chargen AI with a system of 6 can have active subscriptions to 12 agents running around at any given time. That's 12 decoys and 12 hands. What are the chances that the node someone set up to trap the AI (free birdseed for roadrunners?) actually has the AI in it? An AI should shun such common and disposable nodes as someone might casually destroy and only hisself enter nodes of note and worth.
Besides most corps would rather convince an AI to take up residence in their systems than destroy them. An AI doesn't have the same kinds of concerns (read: politics) a living creature does, so it would be easy enough to satisfy one, and while it's held up in their system, that selfsame system is running at SotA levels. We're talking system or response ratings of 8-10 for an already powerful machine. What profit-driven org wouldn't love to recruit an AI? |
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#47
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 ![]() |
Yeah, sure, an AI can have 12 agents running around, but so can any metahuman with a decent commlink. There really isn't much of anything that an AI can do that a Metahuman can't do much better.
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#48
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,444 Joined: 18-April 08 Member No.: 15,912 ![]() |
Which is the primary reason I'm wondering about an A.I.'s ability to obtain upgrades to its programing.
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#49
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,705 Joined: 5-October 09 From: You are in a clearing Member No.: 17,722 ![]() |
Yeah, sure, an AI can have 12 agents running around, but so can any metahuman with a decent commlink. Decent comlink? You mean military a grade supercomputer stuffed into their head? Yeah. That's true, but it wasn't my point. My point was that it's harder to pin down an AI than "tricking it into a comlink and smashing it" since who ever was monitoring the trap shouldn't really be able to tell the AI from its agents. Besides, all you have to do to kill a street sam is trick him into a building and then blow it up. Doesn't mean that's good storytelling. There really isn't much of anything that an AI can do that a Metahuman can't do much better. Yeah, including die. Complete biofeedback immunity means that an AI can rip some of the toughest of IC to shreds and can never get trapped into a combat. Decent benefit imo. Besides the software emulation of implants, here's another option for GMs who want their AIs to be less limited - AIs aren't natural, therefore they shouldn't have natural maximums, just starting maximums. Give them the room for unlimited, slow growth as they mature. I mean the basic idea of these AIs is evolving code which happened to evolve self-awareness and self-determination. They should have the potential to become hyper-specialized. And besides all the rules and suggested rules, AIs are just fun for roleplaying. I'd be happy if they replaced hackers entirely. Pasty white nerds roleplaying pasty white nerds is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif) . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) |
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