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Stahlseele
post Oct 3 2009, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE
Shapechange requires a voluntary subject, so this won't work.

About that, what happens if the target does volounteer but changes their mind?
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Karoline
post Oct 3 2009, 04:58 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 3 2009, 12:15 PM) *
About that, what happens if the target does volounteer but changes their mind?


I believe magic is a 'no takebacks' kind of system in that reguard, but I'm not entirely certain. It would be a handy way for a sammy to pop back into metahuman form when he wants to instead of relying on the mage's timing.
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Glyph
post Oct 3 2009, 05:37 PM
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In SR3, Shapechange had a variant spell, Transform, that could be used on involuntary targets.
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Dahrken
post Oct 4 2009, 08:42 AM
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The "voluntary" part is IMHO required only at the time of the spellcasting. Once you have consciously let the magic change you, it's too late to change your mind.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 4 2009, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (Dahrken @ Oct 4 2009, 01:42 AM) *
The "voluntary" part is IMHO required only at the time of the spellcasting. Once you have consciously let the magic change you, it's too late to change your mind.



This.......
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pbangarth
post Oct 4 2009, 05:29 PM
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Yes, but I pointed out the 'voluntary' bit to counter the suggestion earlier that Shapechange could be used on an enemy or an unwilling dupe.
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Karoline
post Oct 4 2009, 05:47 PM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Oct 4 2009, 01:29 PM) *
Yes, but I pointed out the 'voluntary' bit to counter the suggestion earlier that Shapechange could be used on an enemy or an unwilling dupe.


Yeah, but someone else brought up the question of what happens when someone who was willing becomes unwilling.
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Stahlseele
post Oct 4 2009, 07:17 PM
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Yes me.
Imagine a Pornomancer Mage simply telling people how awesome being changed into a rat would be . .
Hmm . . can you make someone into a willing target by either knocking them out(can't say no) or using influenca magics?
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Karoline
post Oct 4 2009, 07:18 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 4 2009, 03:17 PM) *
Yes me.
Imagine a Pornomancer Mage simply telling people how awesome being changed into a rat would be . .
Hmm . . can you make someone into a willing target by either knocking them out(can't say no) or using influenca magics?


Yes and yes. I'm somewhat sure about the knocked out thing, and somewhat more sure on the influence magic thing.
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Stahlseele
post Oct 4 2009, 07:41 PM
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Veddy interestink!
GM:"OK, you wake up."
P1:"I shake my head"
GM:"Your whiskers hit something next to your head"
P1:"i . . wait what?"
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Karoline
post Oct 4 2009, 08:07 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 4 2009, 03:41 PM) *
Veddy interestink!
GM:"OK, you wake up."
P1:"I shake my head"
GM:"Your whiskers hit something next to your head"
P1:"i . . wait what?"

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)
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pbangarth
post Oct 4 2009, 08:37 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 4 2009, 03:18 PM) *
Yes and yes. I'm somewhat sure about the knocked out thing, and somewhat more sure on the influence magic thing.


I'm not so sure about the knocked out thing. To me, not present is not the same as voluntary.

However, the Influence type of magic looks promising.

[[It would be good to be a rat right now.]]
"Man I wish I was a rat right now!"
"I can help you with that!"
"Chill!"
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Neraph
post Oct 6 2009, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 4 2009, 01:17 PM) *
Yes me.
Imagine a Pornomancer Mage simply telling people how awesome being changed into a rat would be . .
Hmm . . can you make someone into a willing target by either knocking them out(can't say no) or using influenca magics?

In Dungeons and Dragons, unconscious targets were immediately considered willing targets, but I don't know how far the rules for Shadowrun actually go. Depends on what kind of dream they're having, maybe?
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tisoz
post Oct 6 2009, 04:40 PM
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Not positive in 4th, but in prior editions (and it makes sense it is needed in 4th) Heal and Treat Spells require voluntary targets. Being unconscious makes them voluntary by default.
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Stahlseele
post Oct 6 2009, 05:34 PM
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point. Stabilize would be kinda pointless, if someone is in overflow, most likely unconscious, and you can't apply that spell . .
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Apathy
post Oct 6 2009, 06:57 PM
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So knocking someone out, shapechanging them into goldfish, and flushing them down the toilet becomes an efficient means of body disposal?

Stupid question: If a ghoul eats chunks of a person that had been shape-changed into a cow, does it still count as metahuman flesh for purposes of fulfilling their dietary requirement?
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tisoz
post Oct 6 2009, 07:36 PM
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QUOTE (Apathy @ Oct 6 2009, 02:57 PM) *
So knocking someone out, shapechanging them into goldfish, and flushing them down the toilet becomes an efficient means of body disposal?

I have no problem with this, but they would need to keep sustaining the spell or they clog the pipes.

QUOTE
Stupid question: If a ghoul eats chunks of a person that had been shape-changed into a cow, does it still count as metahuman flesh for purposes of fulfilling their dietary requirement?

No, they are a cow. If the spell is stopped being sustained while still being digested, I'd say yes, it's back to human.

Only argument I see is still have human sentience.
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pbangarth
post Oct 6 2009, 07:46 PM
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QUOTE (tisoz @ Oct 6 2009, 12:40 PM) *
Not positive in 4th, but in prior editions (and it makes sense it is needed in 4th) Heal and Treat Spells require voluntary targets. Being unconscious makes them voluntary by default.

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 6 2009, 01:34 PM) *
point. Stabilize would be kinda pointless, if someone is in overflow, most likely unconscious, and you can't apply that spell . .

Look at the table at the back of Street Magic, pages 188, 189. Heal does not require a voluntary target, nor does Stabilize. Shapechange does.
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CollateralDynamo
post Oct 6 2009, 08:03 PM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Oct 6 2009, 01:46 PM) *
Look at the table at the back of Street Magic, pages 188, 189. Heal does not require a voluntary target, nor does Stabilize. Shapechange does.



At my tables voluntary vs. involuntary is ruled at a choice made at an instinctive level. Even a knocked out person has an aura and can attempt whatever ambient means of resistance their character possesses (no counter-spelling obviously). I have not seen an official ruling on that tho, so it is just my opinion on the rules.
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CollateralDynamo
post Oct 6 2009, 08:03 PM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Oct 6 2009, 01:46 PM) *
Look at the table at the back of Street Magic, pages 188, 189. Heal does not require a voluntary target, nor does Stabilize. Shapechange does.



At my tables voluntary vs. involuntary is ruled at a choice made at an instinctive level. Even a knocked out person has an aura and can attempt whatever ambient means of resistance their character possesses (no counter-spelling obviously). I have not seen an official ruling on that tho, so it is just my opinion on the rules.
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tisoz
post Oct 6 2009, 08:06 PM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Oct 6 2009, 03:46 PM) *
Look at the table at the back of Street Magic, pages 188, 189. Heal does not require a voluntary target, nor does Stabilize. Shapechange does.

There you go. I said I wasn't sure in 4th edition. But according to SR4.195 under Range, it states unconscious characters are considered to be voluntary.

What was different in 3rd edition with the Transform spell, besides not needing a voluntary target, the target did not keep its mental attributes and did not recall things while transformed. So shapechanging an unconcious victim and making them live as an animal could be cruel, especially if they were headed for the slaughterhouse.
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pbangarth
post Oct 6 2009, 08:21 PM
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QUOTE (CollateralDynamo @ Oct 6 2009, 04:03 PM) *
At my tables voluntary vs. involuntary is ruled at a choice made at an instinctive level. Even a knocked out person has an aura and can attempt whatever ambient means of resistance their character possesses (no counter-spelling obviously). I have not seen an official ruling on that tho, so it is just my opinion on the rules.

I understand your position that your tables play it that way.

I look through the whole table of spells, pages 187-189 in SM, and few of the spells listed as voluntary make any sense for an unconscious target. Maybe something like Enabler, or Stim or Critter Form could be stretched to be useful on such a target, or you could get kinky with Makeover.

EDIT: Well, shit! Unconscious = voluntary in both SR4 and SR4A. Sucks to be me.
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Karoline
post Oct 6 2009, 08:41 PM
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QUOTE (Apathy @ Oct 6 2009, 01:57 PM) *
So knocking someone out, shapechanging them into goldfish, and flushing them down the toilet becomes an efficient means of body disposal?


That's sweet. Imagine what the plumbers would think when they try unclogging the pipes and end up having to cut the pipes open and find a really really tall thin human stuck in one of the pipes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Stahlseele
post Oct 6 2009, 08:42 PM
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So will now somebody answer my question as to what would happen if i were to transform an body 3 elf into a rat and flush him down the pipes and then lift the spell?
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milk ducks
post Oct 6 2009, 08:57 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Sep 30 2009, 01:40 PM) *
Gunbunny! I choose you!


It's super effective!

-milk.
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