Analyze, browse, command, Edit, encrypt, reality filter, and scan. The common use programs. I really can't imagine better names for any of them, or any way to make it any more self explanatory as to what they do. Reality filter is the only one I would imagine needing to look up for what -exactly- it does.

Now, for the hacking programs you have Armor, attack, data bomb, defuse, decrypt, medic, and stealth which are all basically no brainers.

Biofeedback filters requires a touch of knowledge about SR, but are fairly easy.

Black hammer and blackout are basically the same, and once again are fairly intuitive once you know basic SR things.

Sniffer, spoof, and eccm might require require you to actually read the rules to know what they do, but for the most part aren't that difficult. ECCM counters ECM, sniffer I actually don't remember off hand, and spoof spoofs stuff, which I thought was a basic English word, and not a technical term, because I've known it for so long.

So yeah, you have three programs which might actually require you to glance at the rules to know what they do in 4e, as opposed to having to try and remember what the esoterically named 3e programs do.

That and it seems easier to go 'I chuck Attack+cybercombat vs Response + firewall' instead of trying to figure out what color system I'm in and figuring out TNs and whatnot.

Same goes for combat in general. Personally I always had trouble working out TNs in 3e during combat, so much easier to just throw Blade + Agi vs dodge/melee skill + Reaction and see who gets more hits.

Please show me a reference where it dictates that you must create NPC's with BP's... I cannot find such a reference...
And if this WAS the case, then why do none of the NPC Templates follow such a rule?

I believe the rules SUGGEST creating "Prime Runner" NPCs using the BP system, for the sole purpose of balancing the NPC's power level with the PCs' power level, but that's about it. To my knowledge there is no hard and fast NPCs-MUST-be-made-using-BPs rule.

AGAIN... PRIME RUNNERS... not all the NPC's you will ever face...a Prime Runner is your equal or better...
Now, some HTR teams may well be your equal or better, but they are NOT statted out as Prime Runners...

Just wanted to point that out...

Keep the Faith

There is one area where I find SR4 to be easier than almost every game I've played, and that's how the dice mechanic works at the table. Tell the GM what you want to do. He tells you the modifier, you grab the appropriate number of dice, roll, and just count. No addition or rerolling (outside of edge). Rerolling always takes up time as the players have to pick out the dice that explode from their mass of dice. And I have always had players who get hung up for several seconds doing simple addition, not because they don't know how, but because their brains aren't well wired for it.

So, in my experience, actions take less time to roll out. As a Gamemaster, I can toss my handful of dice, quickly pick out fives and sixes, and move on.

My only wish is that all modifiers could be to the threshold. That would really speed up play, but as it is, there would be a loss of nuance.

The two main problems with that are that +/-1 TN is like +/-3 DP, and often you want to be able to make a smaller adjustment than that.

Edit: The other main problem is that most tests are opposed, which you can't really adjust the TN of.

Also, I don't know why people constantly go on about TNs being adjusted. There is hardly anything in the game that modifies TNs, virtually everything is adjustments to dice. This is because almost everything in the game is an opposed test, and not a simple success test. So yeah, as much as everyone talks about it being so complicated to have DP and TN being modified instead of just TN in 3e, but really, 4e almost never adjusts TN.

Agreed, It is pretty rare indeed...

Perhaps whoever said that NPCs HAD to be built using BPs confused Prime Runners with standard, run-of-the-mill NPCs.

Under the old system you had TNs and also had thresholds. This bugged me. I like the new system better.

The only thing I miss about the old system was group karma pools. I think it added a lot to the group dynamic. Maybe it would be worth adding that as an optional rule for group edge.

Karoline, I find your posts offensive, maybe its late and I'm tired but it feels like you are attacking my wife and her opinion directly. As the original poster I ask you to please stop.
I would respond to your matrix post but I feel I could not do so right now without being rude.

[edit] Now that I have calmed down a bit lets see if I can show you where she is coming from. I'm a techie I can't speak 1 language let alone multiple. My wife is a linguist and generally has little to no interest in computers. She just wants to hit print and have a page spit out. She speaks enough languages to make europeans go wow and then she proceeds to speak to them in their native tongue. She played the shadowrun sega game a bit which uses 1e matrix rules and a couple sessions of 3e, she picked a decker of all things because she liked them in the sega game and was able to easily adjust into 3e because the language was the same as the video game. Now enter 4e, I created her character for her because if character creation is more complicated than vampire she already hates the game. Again she would be the decker/hacker by request. She takes one look at what used to be computer and build/repair computer and instead there is computer, cybercombat, data search, electronic warfare, hacking, hardware, and software. She was already unhappy with the result asking when does she use hacking or cybercombat, what is this electronic warfare thing etc. I offered to change it to the group skills for her but she decided to soldier on. She then looks at her commlink it looks different but she knows what a firewall is sorta and the other 3 were easy enough to explain. She looks over her programs and there are many that are farmilar but shes confused. How do I fool the system to break in? (she means deception for the 3e folks) she says... I tell her thats Exploit now... This is about the point where she starts getting pissed and uses her sailor mouth. When she calms down and we go over the programs (eyes now swimming, trying to absorb the information) we get on to game play. We have 1 4e book around the table so its being passed a lot. She gets frustrated by having particular skills matched to programs which is all new terms to her. Does exploit go with hacking or cybercombat? What does analyze and browse use as attributes? Why is it all so confusing and complicated? Why cant i just have my computer skill and hacking pool back, that was easy I only had to figure out what program to use.

That pretty much sums it up. I'm not bashing 4e, it is more consistent and easier to read, but somethings just are not as simple. Like I said 3e uncommon program had more gonzo names than 4e, but 4e chose for better or worse to try some real world terms. These terms don't always translate to people who are not in the field. I found the whole thing very interesting because everyone kept telling me how simple 4e was and to give it another go.

VR 2.0 matrix tns are not as complicated as you seam to think, they were for the most part made up. As a GM you just set the difficulty in the range of the color (Im not saying the colors were a good idea but we had them since 1e). The suggested way in 3e was to roll randomly for difficulty, this tells me you just set a tn within reason for the color. But thats old skool, you dont need the rules to tell you want to do just be a guide. If people played D&D by the book it never would have survived to 3e.

I'm not trying to be rude to your wife. I was simply pointing out that for the most part 4e has easy to understand names from the point of view of someone who has never touched SR before. I was also pointing out that the fact that your wife had played the SNES game alot, didn't exactly make her an impartial observer on which rule set was easier. Of course she found sleaze and schmooze easier than encrypt and spoof, because that is what she is used to. I was also pointing out that the fact that you are more familiar with 3e than 4e would have also made it easier for her to play in 3e.

Basically I was countering, very specifically, you presenting your wife's opinion as an objective newbie trying out both system. I wasn't saying that her opinions on the systems where any less valid than anyone else posting here, simply that she wasn't a newbie trying out both systems on equal footing like you kind of presented her as.

The reason I went into the matrix programs was to illustrate that most people who have no knowledge of SR are going to generally be more likely to know what a 4e program does than what a 3e program does because of the odd naming used in 3e compared with the largely straightforward 4e nomenclature.

I think what we'd really need is to have someone who has roughly similar experience with both system run a group of new players through both settings and see which they found easier. Preferably you'd do this with two different groups, running one through 4e then 3e, and the other through 3e then 4e, as there is a tendency to have the first system be considered 'easier' regardless of anything else (Which is why I think some of the people who have played for ages think 3e is easier, because it is simply more familiar to them.)

Your assuming I mean impartial, and I dont! She HATES shadowrun, the fact that I got her to play at all took weeks of persuasion. The fact that she enjoyed 3e was astonishing, cus every other time shes played it or 2e she quit before the game got going.



Assuming you use GM who know the systems inside and out that would be fine. With new GMs you have to consider age and bad writing. Older GMs will be used to wonky badly worded books. My group that is playing 4e right now is my wife, someone who played 2e, 2 completely new guys and someone who loves 4e and convinced me to switch from 3e after 2 sessions of 3e. So far I'm on the fence, I have a learning curve to go through. So far one player hates 4e, two dislike it, one is indifferent, and the guy who convinced me likes it. I plan on going at leased 10 sessions or so before making a final decision. There are things I really like in the new system, things I really dont like, and most stuff I am indifferent on.

Well I still remember the Riggeremulationprotocols ( I hope its the right translation)
Without these the Decker couldn't rig.And he needet not only a second Datajack,but a different one
Well for Me ,I never Understood,why the Two where so different even though they used the same "tools"



Its not only the writing (though i must admit that the German SR4A has the best written, easy explaning Matrix rules,that I've read ) It's also the rules that are Easier.The SR3 Colourcoding and the....(dammit)
Ok
As a Matrix Jockey you had to play in a very different way.You had to be fast an reckless, not hesitating for one Ini-Pass or the ICs would get you,but If you're too fast you make mistakes.If you want to be careful you'd end up Dead(Security Tally ?). If you want to Play that way as a Street Sam You'd end up just as Dead
So you needed two different Styles of Play in one Group,.... thats not very comfortable !
Also the Matrix Action used to take a long Time in SR3 (If we where really fast,neglecting some of the Rules or "Handwaving" some at least 15-20 Minutes) during which the other Players where forced to watch or do other things (Ordering Pizza f.e) that was a "Funkiller" too !
No in SR4 the GM can switch between Matrix and Mundane World and has a much better Grip at the whole story (no more Pizza for us) its fastpaced and Fun for all
(No thats not the new SR4A Advertising line (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) thats how I think about It )

Hough !
Medicineman

I have to say that reading this did teach me one thing: for npc mooks, just use the same ratings that you would for common devices.

Probably read that in the book, it just never sank in. Kind of like how you don't have to use all 250 of your BP points on attributes.

Shouldn't skim sometimes, I suppose.

Oh! And 4e is the first edition of Shadowrun that didn't make my head wobble when I tried to sit down and figure out the rules. I tried reading the 2e rules the other night and I just blanked. Could it be that the writing was less clear? Quite possibly. But there are a lot of things that you have to watch out for, modify, double check - coming from someone who played WoD games regularly as a teen, 4e rules are a lot simpler to understand. You take the attribute and add it to your skill and roll to see how many five's and six's you get, hoping to hit higher than the eye-ball'd difficulty rating. For extended actions, keep rolling each time until you either fail outright or succeed, but that could take weeks of work. Everything else is usually just a small twist off of that base.

Not that hard.

so where is the first mission starting? and how did bug city end? in case old characters are brought back they should have some idea of how they got out of bug city.

I think you've got the wrong thread.

So unless your GM is describing the matrix in detail or your in combat... From VR2.0 and beyond it should really be quicker. Assuming your in the building...
1. Jack In
2. Run Analyze
3. Run Deception, if successful go to 4, otherwise cybercombat
4. Issue the command you want
5. Jack Out.

Now cybercombat could take just as long as regular combat but for most times this shouldnt come up unless the GM thinks he has to have cybercombat.
The other thing in VR2.0/3e that could slow you down is if your not physically jacked into the host you need to be. Then you'll have to repeat that process at leased once.

Well, I feel the game in general is simpler and more consistent between the different areas of the game system.

But I can understand your feeling : the matrix rules are more detailed and building (and playing !) a well-rounded hacker is now a much more involved process than before.

I'll give this one a shot. In SR4 a "system" or "node" (eg. "something the PC needs to hack") is defined by 4 attributes: System, Response, Firewall, and Signal. Under SR3 the equivalent is defined by 7 attributes: a colour code, a rating, Access, Control, Index, Files, and Slave (ACIFS). In SR4, if the Hacker sets off an Alert on the system the GM can determine a random system response with a single roll. Under SR3 an entire "security sheaf" needed to be generated, which (if done randomly), included a dozen or more "steps" or "responses" from the system at random intervals. If your SR3 Decker decided they wanted to intrude on a system that the GM had not pre-generated, the amount of game time taken up to roll one up on the fly was staggering. I actually wrote a program in QBASIC that did it for me. Under SR4, I can quite easily make up a system on the fly: 4 numbers and 1 random roll. Also, because Alert Responses by the system in SR4 are really up to the GM, it allows the GM to have the system respond a little more "organically" and in keeping with the story than the "mini-game" rules of SR3. For example, if the system's primary purpose is to protect some top-secret corp files, but there are also a bunch of other databases, it would serve to reason that the response to a perceived threat against those special files would warrant stronger countermeasures than against other files. The SR3 rules didn't allow nearly as much freedom in story-driven security response such as this.

Here are a couple other examples. To determine if a patrolling IC detects the intruder in SR4 is Hacking + Exploit vs. Computer + Analyze; this happens whenever the GM "feels" that the Hacker may have exposed themselves to detection. This mirrors the "meat world" equivalent action, which would be: Agility + Infiltration vs. Intuition + Perception. In SR3, the IC or system as a whole rolled vs the Decker's "detection factor" which (as a base) was the sum of the Deck's Masking + Sleaze Program / 2, unless the Decker had previously crashed an IC in cybercombat which decreased the Decker's detection factor by 1 unless the Decker sacrificed 1 die from their Hacking Pool to suppress that modified, which meant that the Decker and GM needed to remember that the Hacking Pool had been reduced for all further calculations. In SR4 when an intruder is spotted, then that's it they are "spotted" much like if a physical guard saw a character trying to sneak into some building, but in SR3 "spotting" a Decker merely added more hits which increased their "level" on the Security Sheaf which could mean any number of different things happened. This happened every Initiative Pass. (As an aside, the fact that Hacking Pool was a factor in Decking test pretty much required that they be resolved as "Combat Turns" so the refresh timing of the Pool could be tracked; in SR4 this is not necessary) Tracking Running programs and the swapping thereof is another area where SR4 is significantly simpler: you can run programs = Response (Unwired's extra options aside for a moment). In SR3 your Deck had "Active Memory" (basically RAM) and each program had a "size" that it took up in Active Memory (which needed to be recalculated if the rating of the program ever changed), so the Decker needed to add up all "active" programs to ensure that they didn't exceed the Active Memory on the Deck. If the Decker wanted to swap programs they needed to shut one down with a Simple Action (which is identical in SR4), then load a new one into Active Memory which required finding the size of the program to be loaded (which the Decker pre-calculated and wrote down 99% of the time) then dividing that by the Deck's I/O speed to determine how many Combat Turns it took to get the program into Active Memory (another reason that SR3 Decking actions needed to be run in individual Combat Turns all the time). The same I/O calculation needed to be done when grabbing a file from the system and downloading it into Storage Memory on the Deck, which also needed to be tracked and managed.

I do agree that the options given in Unwired kind of "splintered" things enough that SR4 Matrix stuff at the "lowest order" (to use that previous poster's term) has about as many different options as SR3 had (like Area Attack, Cascading, etc), the "base system" in SR4 is significantly less complicated, as my examples above show.

Thank you for the great explanation. My hierarchy scheme doesn't incorporate the number of variables needed to describe a system, so let's just scrap it. Your example demonstrates that fewer variables are needed in SR4 to fully describe a hacker, IC, and nodes. This pretty clearly shows that the SR4 matrix system is less complex.

I don't have my books handy, but I seem to recall that most of the problems you present about SR3 were optional rules. Second, the ones like security sheaves were as complex as you wanted them to be-- you could make it go from no alert to full alert only, just like SR4. When I get my books back, I'll be equally glad to show an overcomplicated example of SR4. At the very least, SR4 Matrix uses a different core mechanic than the rest of the book, something SR3 never did.

for the GM, (which is a valid point). However for PCs its MORE complicated. I guess I don't really look at it from the GM perspective as I've been running matrix stuff without pizza breaks since 1e. It wasn't easy in the early days but by the time I understood VR 2.0 it took no more time than the current system on my part. Actually less time but that I believe is because I'm not familiar enough with the 4e system to completely wing it yet.

if people are getting hung up on red - 6/9/8/7/9/6 or whatever its because it looks scary or your rolling randomly.
Basicly your going to pick a difficulty like Hard for Ares, or Easy for no name corp this will pick your color.
Then your picking how skilled they are from 2-12
Then your picking how tough the subsystems are from 4-12

For ares we might pick something like red-8/9/7/10/6/8, I tend to pick how skilled they are and then add or subtract a couple from that for each target number.
While more numbers its about the same complexity (other than the silly color part) as picking system+firewall. System+Firewall does have the advantage of not stringing 5 extra numbers along that add little to the game.

No,It doesn't !
It just switches Attribute and Programm thats all (and its not a different Core Mechanic,what are you talking about,why are you exagerating ? )
SR4 has also the optional Rule of streamlining matrix actions by using LOG & Skill (Maximum successes by Program Rating) Which we are using in one of our Gaming rounds succesfully !
@Malachi
Thanks .(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) what you wrote is exactly what I wanted to say/post

Hough !
Medicineman

Once again people are arguing personal preference, subjective experience and not empirical fact.

Well, we could (and some are) arguing it along the lines of Occum's Razor (However you spell his name) in that the rule set with the fewest steps to accomplish something is the best (Or at least simplest in our case).