No, not faster. And certainly not with swimming. Too easy to just stop.
But going longer than i should on a bike has happened. Tunnel vision.
Just keep going until i am where i want to be, no matter how far it is.
Then completely crash for some days and repeat untill i am home again.
When i was 10 Years old, i had crossed big parts of Germany by bike.

I still can't think of edge as anything other than a luck stat <.<
And it's really hard for me to accept luck factoring into such things at all.
But at least, i am trying.

Try thinking about Edge as the propensity to reach a transcendent mental state.
We've all had those moments where we're just in a headspace where everything just aligns for us - that sort of focus that we can sometimes bring to bear on a task, but which we can't maintain in our everyday lives.

Heck I've been "in the zone" playing FPS games, programming, and other stuff while sitting at my computer, doesn't have to be an intense physical activity (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The effect of a proper mental state on performance is pretty profound. Keep in mind that even some people with Tourette's have learned to be able to suppress their tics temporarily through concentration. Oddly enough, this is sometimes easier for them while performing difficult tasks, not routine ordinary ones. For example, Tim Howard is an American goalkeeper who plays for Everton, and he has stated before that tics are a non-issue when he's got a player bearing down on him. For one thing, he is capable of suppressing his tics for periods of time even in daily life, and the mental state he reaches while in the flow of the game practically shuts them automatically even if they aren't what he is concerned about at the time. He might get a tic or two if the ball is mired at midfield, but that's the extent of it. Frankly, I'm prepared to venture that the ability to get into the zone and stay there is one of the key features of a dominant professional athlete. I've talked to more than a few in my life, and when it comes to performance shutting out distractions is about all they ever talk about. It's part of what separates the stars from the gym rats.

I agree that Strength is underpowered with rules as written. I think that some of the optional rules (e.g. the one about getting additional recoil comp from very high strength) help, but aren't sufficient by themselves to make strength as important as agility in any of the core builds.

Possible house rules that make strength more significant include:

• making strength a factor (or even the only factor) in how much armor you can wear
• allowing users to use strength rather than agility as the linked attribute for unarmed and for some of the armed melee skills. (This [rightfully I think] make's trolls king of the melee world. I know that this is unpopular, but I still have problems with the idea that an exceedingly graceful weakling can beat up a guy with the strength and mass of a rhino in hand to hand combat. Would suggest that if you do this you also reduce base damage from armed to use Str/3, and unarmed to use Str/4, instead of Str/2. This way trolls could punch through car doors, but not through APC armor.)

Now wait for the people to argue about the weak old little kung fu master sensei who can beat up people with his skill of 7 and his attribute of 1 . .
But yes, i agree, Trolls should be king in Combat. Especially, in CLOSE COMBAT . . At least, now they get to wear more armor than Elves <.<
In SR3, Quickness was used for Armor Encumberance and the such . . Which elves got a Boost to, and Trolls got a malus to . . so the stupid dumb strength1 body1 elf could carry more armor than the body15 strength15 troll . .

I should preface by saying that I love playing strong characters. My "one trick" in my handle; it's building and playing the brute. It's my first and favorite thing to do in any game.

But even I'll say that unarmed combat needs to be based on Agility not Strength. the weak old little kung fu master sensei will have a hard time beating up any one with a strength of 1 because he isn't going to do enough damage. His ability withhold dice from the pool but successfully increase the damage he can do with called shots and other tecniques due to his high agility makes sence. The low agility brute with high strength that rarely connects, but is devistating when he does, makes sence.

There are two ways to highlight the utility of the strength stat in the game.

the first has already been mentioned. Strength is like Charisma, you have to Roleplay Strength. This is largely dependent on the GM catching his player doing things things they wouldn't normally be able to do as waify elf sissies.

The second is to set the strength and lifting table in the book to something that reflects reality. A Str 7 character (olymic level for a human) should be able to routinly Deadlift 400Kg. (900lbs.) and Overhead Press 200Kg (450lbs). Once players realize they can have that kind of power at their finger tips see if they don't find all kinds of uses for it.

edited by OTP for people who nitpic my math (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I don't think it is the case. The elf might find it easier to touch the troll (not even that much because of the troll's reach), but he won't inflict any significant damage. Then the troll retaliates, gets a decent chance to hit too (thanks again to his reach) and smashes that punny elf through the wall. Contrary to SR3, a high Melee dice pool does not protect you from the opponent's attacks.

I think the (Str + Bod)*2 against Ballistic + Impact armor is an awesome idea, and it totally will not affect my Mortimer of London outfit anyways, or my business suit.

Strength may be a bit less powerful than in other games, but is that a bad thing? While the exact weight of items is left out, it makes very clear they do still have a weight, and situations do come up where it quite suddenly becomes very important. Like my low strength elven face trying to drag our unconscious .03 essence sammy. Me, "I'll drag him into the nearby alley. . .Can I drag him?" GM, "No."

I agree that agility should remain the stat to hit for the same reasons already stated.

I also think the mythical 'weak old martial arts master' is a bad example. Sure, they're not body builders... but they're anything but weak. I'm no small fry, but all my instructors over the years have been smaller than me and stronger than me. Applied strength is the important part. Any unarmed fighter with a Strength of 1 is in for a world of hurt unless they develop some nerve techniques.

On a different note, the players had to make 2 runs in my last run because they couldn't lift the loot boxes. Strength has it's place... just generally not in combat according to SR rules right now.

The thing is, elderly martial artists aren't actually weak at all. When you're in that kind of shape, even a fairly thin looking person is surprisingly strong. Strength and Agility should pull an equal share of the weight in melee combat, but every system I've played favors one over the other.

The mage in my game has already circumvented this by summoning an earth elemental to do his heavy lifting. Saved my troll bacon one time.

My idea was not that unarmed would have to be strength based, but that the character would be able to choose between styles that were strength based and ones that were agility based. Not all styles of combat are focused on precision targeting or faster movement. It's possible to imagine a style that is focused on the maximum delivery of force. The reality is in real fights it's nearly impossible to completely dodge all punches. Much of the time all a fighter can do is block or move enough so that they take the hit on a less vulnerable part of their body. If you're in a fight with a person that has a strength rating 8 points higher than you than there is no way to block a punch without incurring some damage. There's no portion of my body that is durable enough to withstand a full force punch/kick from a rhino - if I block with my arm or leg I end up with a broken arm or leg! Granted, this is superior to not blocking and ending up with a broken skull. But I'll get damaged either way.

Another possible idea, in keeping with the idea that generally both participants in a fight take a level of damage (even the winner): Continue to use Agility + Skill for each combatant on the success test. However, then have BOTH participants resist damage each round with the opponent's base attack damage reduced by the net hits on the success test.
Example:
Tom Troll (TT) and Eddie Elf (EE) square off in the boxing ring.

• TT's got Body 10, Strength 8, Agility 2, and +1 for Reach.
• EE's got Body 3, Strength 4, and Agility 6. Both characters are even in skill (3).

Using the existing rules for Unarmed Combat:


Using these altered rules for Unarmed Combat:


[Edit]Note that in reality this would be closer to how a bare-knuckle boxing match would work. Otherwise the gloves would reduce damage by at least 2 points (Making TT's and EE's base damage 3S and 0S, respectively.) Which explains how boxers can go so damn long before getting knocked out, unless there's a significant disparity in skill or one makes a careless mistake (glitch!)

A Levitate spell would also work, probably for a lower drain.

Magic Fingers + Levitate = get your beer from the fridge without getting your ass out of the couch (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

Though most of the people here know it already, I'm going to throw out there on principle that center of balance plays a huge part (one of the tricks of the "kung fu" master).

I've seen people in shoving, lifting, and wrestling matches hold off people much larger than themselves. One friend of mine was taught the (very) basics of Sumo by litterally a "little old kung fu master" (the head of Goju Ryu karate, probably a decade ago) over the course of half an hour, and to this day I've seen him stop people much larger than himself, and then shove them back across the floor.

(Sorry, I just love the "kung fu" master -> teaching sumo example.)

However, in the case of the "good" (not maxed) Elf vs. the Troll, what type of dice pools are we looking at? Instinctively I want to say the body + armor of the troll is going to negate all the elf's damage (w/o called shots). Is this gut instinct likely correct?

Has anyone mentioned yet that, according to RAW, a STR 1 elf could easily carry and even fire the supposedly gigantic Panther cannon? With no recoil modifier?

In SR3, everybody who fired the PAC had to make a roll to see if they ended up on their butt afterwards. And everybody had to resist 8L Stun too if i remember correctly.
No matter how Strong you were, no matter how tough you were, no matter how much recoil compensation you had, no matter how much armor your wore. Well, actually, armor helped against this damage i think. so the Troll would have to resist more damage than the elf because of his usually lower armor, but he would, of course, have way more dice to resist the damage . . . but strength and/or body helped with the not comically falling to your butt after maing a big BOOM.

The mage was a bit too busy to cast levitate.


For strength not mattering in melee though, has anyone never seen a strength 18 troll with a reach 4 weapon?

These rules made it to Arsenal, along with the minimum BOD and STR 8 to carry heavy weapons. But the damage got nastier: a trauma damper cannot shrug it off automatically anymore.

Well, that's what the Pain-Editor is there for.

I don't recall reading any rules about taking stun damage from firing an assault cannon, or even having a STR/BOD requirement.

I am sorry... SImple Nitpick...

400kg is 880 lbs, not 900, and 200kg is equal to 440 lbs, not 250lbs...

Nitpick Over...

Keep the Faith

Me Neither, I guess that I will have to go back and look it up...

Keep the Faith

I like the original math though. If 400kg = 900lbs, half of the first is less than a third of the other! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Here's a thought: instead of the typical STR/2 how about STR-2, with a minimum of one of course.