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Dakka Dakka
post Nov 4 2009, 03:04 PM
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QUOTE (Mystweaver @ Nov 4 2009, 01:57 PM) *
Yet again I am stuck in SR3 so don't know how such a thing would work in SR4
Not too well, unless he is a grade 10+ Initiate. Again upping the damage is the better (maybe even too good) alternative for called shots. Here he would only need four initiations to completely negate the penalty.
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Syonyde
post Nov 10 2009, 07:49 AM
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I don't have sage advice on the topic, but I'd love to add my few cents.

I am playing a character that resembles a certain old-world video game character. This character in question is an adept and may have a certain affinity for finding and even hunting known people who carry the HMHVV

AGI 6(7) REA5(7)

Cyberarm with Cyber-Crossbow (Heavy Crossbow), Mono-Whip, Weapon Foci, Martial Arts. All around awesomeness.

As a character concept, I absolutely love him. In gameplay though, he's not as cracked up as I thought he'd be. He has a good 20 dice pool for his melee attack, Iiajatsu for those quick takedowns, Set-Up for hardened targets, and Finishing Blow just to make sure they really are down.

If anything gets into melee with him, he can more than likely take care of it. Ranged combat does it's fair share of wearing him down though. I can counter that with my crossbow though, although it would be so much easier to throw grenades and wide burst people. In my cases the saying "Never bring a knife to a gunfight" is quite true.

My GM though has allowed a few rules to make adepts tons of fun though. He allowed another melee adept in the group to take Killing Hands to channel his abilities into his Weapon Focus sword, like Critical Hit or Elemental Attack. I shall be following the same path as well, just so I can take Light as an element.

Melee as a main role can be fun, but as suggested before, ranged attacks are always good as well.
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Dakka Dakka
post Nov 10 2009, 08:11 AM
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QUOTE (Syonyde @ Nov 10 2009, 08:49 AM) *
My GM though has allowed a few rules to make adepts tons of fun though. He allowed another melee adept in the group to take Killing Hands to channel his abilities into his Weapon Focus sword, like Critical Hit or Elemental Attack. I shall be following the same path as well, just so I can take Light as an element.
I made a similar house rule. All those Unarmed Attack enhancing powers, except killing hands since you got the weapon focus for that, can be bought as a separate power for each of the skills in the close combat group. That should work as well. Is there a certain reason why the Vampire Hunter does not want to use Unarmed Combat?
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Neraph
post Nov 10 2009, 05:51 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 10 2009, 02:11 AM) *
I made a similar house rule. All those Unarmed Attack enhancing powers, except killing hands since you got the weapon focus for that, can be bought as a separate power for each of the skills in the close combat group. That should work as well. Is there a certain reason why the Vampire Hunter does not want to use Unarmed Combat?

Castlevania is why. If you notice, he said he was based off a certain video game character.
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Dakka Dakka
post Nov 10 2009, 05:53 PM
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Ok, I never played Castlevania.
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Mongoose
post Nov 10 2009, 07:51 PM
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QUOTE (Red-ROM @ Oct 30 2009, 03:55 AM) *
another plus to the phys ad close combatabt is when your in a high security spot, stripped of the grenades and heavy artillery, or when you've been captured/ arrested. no guns, and the mage has a bucket on his head.



How do they know the mage is a mage, but not that the adept is an adept? And if they know he's an adept, why in gods sake aren;t they keeping him from busting out some kung fu? Mage masks work dandy on non-spell-slingers (samurai included), yah know?

The guy I'd want in my cell in that case is the technomancer. He can get the door open and find a route out.
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Ranger
post Nov 10 2009, 08:10 PM
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QUOTE (Vestax @ Oct 27 2009, 03:21 PM) *
While the damage / hits are close to each other vs pistol / katana the melee weapons lose because it requires a complex actions.


In my game, I house ruled that all melee attacks require only a Simple Action, thus enabling up to 2 melee attacks per Action Phase. All melee attack-like actions, such as subdual, also take only a Simple Action.

So far, the rule has worked out well. The ranged fighters still have the advantage in getting off several shots before melee can begin, so it doesn't seem to be overpowered. It's still very easy to die before you can get off a punch or sword slash. If you survive long enough to get into melee, then you can go to town, which doesn't seem unrealistic. Afterall, a street sam who is highly skilled in a katana should be able to kill you right quick if he's able to get up to you!
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Godwyn
post Nov 10 2009, 08:25 PM
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Not to mention that the melee adept in Syonyde's post had Dodge 6 specialization ranged, reaction 5 ( 8 ) and combat senses, and carried a load of thermal smoke grenades to reduce ranged dice pools, so almost nothing could hit him before he got to melee, where he then had his parry dice pool instead (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Dakka Dakka
post Nov 10 2009, 08:39 PM
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QUOTE (Vestax @ Oct 28 2009, 12:21 AM) *
While the damage / hits are close to each other vs pistol / katana the melee weapons lose because it requires a complex actions.

[img]http://geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/katana2.jpg[/img]Sorry, I just had to.

In another game we had a troll adept with Critical Strike 6. That was pretty much on Hit one Kill.

I'm not so sure that melee as a simple action is such a good idea, but if it works for you all the better. Don't your players start hacking tanks to pieces? isn't Cleave aka Finishing Move enough?

I don't know if it has been mentioned before but if stealth is no longer an option a melee-hardened suppressive weapon in one hand and a real melee weapon in the other hand of the two weapon fighter should work as well. Force the opposition to cover till you're close enough and then have a weapon in your "off" hand to use full defense while hacking away.
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Ranger
post Nov 10 2009, 08:45 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 10 2009, 12:39 PM) *
[img]http://geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/katana2.jpg[/img]Sorry, I just had to.

In another game we had a troll adept with Critical Strike 6. That was pretty much on Hit one Kill.

I'm not so sure that melee as a simple action is such a good idea, but if it works for you all the better. Don't your players start hacking tanks to pieces? isn't Cleave aka Finishing Move enough?


Only problem with Finishing Move is if there's more than one opponent, then you're left open against that other opponent for an Action Phase.

So far, the house rule is working well, because the only melee specialist is an adept NPC who travels with the team. Since that's an NPC and therefore I--the GM--have control over the adept, there hasn't been any abuse. I suppose in a group that is composed of largely powergamed melee characters, then my house rule would be a lousy idea. Then again, any rule--including this one--is only overpowered if the players decide to make powergamed characters that abuse the rules.

There was another thread around here talking about full-auto Panther Assault Cannons that had no recoil. If things like that are allowed, then why not melee attacks as a Simple Action?
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Stahlseele
post Nov 10 2009, 09:30 PM
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For 3rd Edition, there is nothing like a STR16 Troll using Hand-Blades refined with dikote, coated with Gamma Scopolamine and the Core Book Close Combat Rules.
STR16. Handblade with Dikote does STR + 4M Damage. So 20M Damage right then and there. Now take another Hand-Blade on the other Hand. Under Core Book this now becomes STR + ( STR / 2 ).
So 16 + ( 16 / 2 = 8 ) = 24M Damage right there. And on a Successfull hit, that IS at least Medium Damage. So your Damage gets through. And then it gets really interesting. Because THEN there comes at least one dose of Gamma Scopolamine, which deals an exact 10D Stun. You only get to resist this with natural Body. No Cyber-Body. Maybe Bonus Dice from BUILT IN Detoxification Equipment. NO Chemical Protection on Armor, and no Armor, because it's a Side Effect of the Close Combat Attack hitting. And then you can be an argumentative Bastard and say that as you used both Hands for the Damage, Both of the coated blades hit. So the poor shlob gets not one, but TWO doses of Gamma-Scopolamine into his body.

Don't like the Hand-Blades and wanna go for even worse?
STR16 Troll with a Dikote coated Pole-Arm. That's 20D Damage with one net success straight there. And because due to Dikote Barriers only being Barrier Rating instead of Barrier RatingX2, you can cut through Houses too. And then you can coat the Pole-Arm with Gamma-Scopolamine too, so even if something manages to NOT be split in half by 20D Damage, it gets to resist another 10D Stun with only natural Body again. And now comes the Kicker. Trolls get +1 Reach for their Arms. And a Pole-Arm nets a +2 Reach too. So that's either a +3 Target Number for your opponent, or a -3 Target Number for your Troll. And you can get a Trolls Pole-Arm Skill to 7 with specialization, then get another Die from Enhanced Artwinculation for 8 Dice. Then you can add in 5 Combat Pool Dice to boot, if you only score one Success with your 8 base dice. Against a -3 TN. If you are feeling argumentative again, you could try and split up the Reach Bonus from Arms and Weapon too. So, a +2TN for your opponent from the Pole-Arm-Reach and a-1TN for your Troll because of his Arms Reach. Or the other way around.

Yes, i know this is HORRIBLY Cheesy. Especially considering, that this is EASY enough to do. And also considering, that with an STR16 Ranger-X Bow, your Troll can also deliver a whopping 21M Damage completely silent over 1000m and then deliver a Dose of 10D Stun Gamma-Scopolamine by using Dikote coated Injection Arrow-Tips. Or 22M Damage by using ExEx.

Maybe get Plastic Bone-Lacing in there for STR+2M Stun-Damage? 18M Stun is not too shabby for being completely unarmed. If your GM allows it, 19M by using Brass-Knuckles.
Maybe get two Cyber-Limbs. Doesn't matter which, as each of those gives you another +1 on your unarmed Power-Niveau. And they should allow to do Physical Damage like the killing Hands Adept power. But they don't, as per the Rules. But still, you get up to 20M Stun in completely unarmed Damage like that. Well, if you want to consider a Troll like this to be unarmed at all. This guy is, basically, a walking Wrecking-Ball. You can throw People and Motorbikes and the odd small Car at your Targets, if you are feeling lucky Punk.

And for all this, you have wasted what? some points into STR, some points into 3 or 4 STr-Related Combat-Skills. One edge for exceptional Attribute. And Muscle Toner 4 and Suprathoid Gland and Enhanced Artwinculation for 4 Points of BioIndex. And 0,5 or 0,4 Points of Essence for the Bone-Work- MAYBE 2 Essence for the Cyber-Limbs. If you go the Route with the Hand-Blades, those can be installed in removeable Hands to be a bit more unconspicous in your free Time. If you go simply with the Blades instead of the Limbs, you spend one point on 2 retractable hand blades and some poison sacks and fill these sacks with Gamma-Scopolamine to coat your Blades. Still enough Room for some light Reflex Work and level 2 Muscle Toner to get your Troll up to speed too.

And you can do this to some extent with Orks and even Dwarves too, even if you have to content with a bit lower STR and no Reach Bonus.

But still, the cybered close Combat Character can be as deadly or even more so than the Adept. Even if the Adept can get up to 18 Dice in Close Combat in character generation, by taking pure skill without specialization, Adept improved skill level 6 and then add in 6 more dice from combat pool. You can even try to do mix and match.

And the best part? This is still a viable Built and can be broadened into Heavy Weapons. Strength helps with recoil and the Heavy Weapons Skill has STR as the related Attribute. And Bioware Attribute counts as natural Attribute for calculating the karma cost for improving a skill. And of course, all other STR related skills too. Also, high Body and natural Dermal plates. This means you can double as the Tank too. And you can go into Athletics later on, if you want.

Yes, i do like me some SR3 Power-Houses, why do you ask? ^^
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Whipstitch
post Nov 11 2009, 05:12 AM
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Don't forget that subdual is quite viable for a muscular troll as well. You don't deal damage on the initial hit, but that's often just fine because your opponent will be pretty helpless unless they have more Body than you have Strength or can beat you in an opposed Strength+Unarmed Combat test on their next pass. In either case the task is probably beyond anyone short of a big ork with luck on his side. After that, you get to threaten Stun equal to your full Strength score as opposed to dividing Strength by half and adding a modifier. On one memorable occasion, my brother's PC, a troll luchador turned shadow runner (Best. Background. Ever.), killed a prime runner level Elf PhysAd basically by spending a point of Edge to grab the guy by the noggin. Next pass he started squeezing...


The best thing about this approach is that it's effective with just a good Unarmed pool and high strength, as opposed to also needing bone density or a hundred karma worth of magical powers. It's a niche ability that's best used to overwhelm the less proficient, but frankly, that's about all any melee build is good for. This one at least has the advantage of not having to trade hits once you've established a lock and best of all, it has points left over to spend on other tricks, since it really only needs a strength of 7 or 8 to be pretty effective against the smaller metatypes. After all, a human has to make a non-trivial commitment to physical combat before they can hope to escape the hold due to their craptacular base body and strength scores.
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The Jake
post Nov 11 2009, 06:26 AM
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Why not a vampire physadept? Built right they could easily get in close, kill just about anything and soak up a ridiculuous amount of damage and get away.

- J.
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Stahlseele
post Nov 11 2009, 05:15 PM
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Why not a surged Drake Adept?
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Dakka Dakka
post Nov 11 2009, 06:12 PM
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Surge + Drake, where do you get points for the rest of an effective character? Surely this isn't something for 400BP.
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Stahlseele
post Nov 11 2009, 06:25 PM
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*shrugs* he want's a melee character. min-maxing par excellance of course.
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Glyph
post Nov 11 2009, 08:30 PM
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There is an interesting snippet on Drakes:

QUOTE (Runner's Companion @ page 75)
As dual natured beings in dracoform, characters can use their Physical attributes and Unarmed Combat skills in conjunction with their Natural Weapon attacks on both the astral and physical planes.

So apparently drakes exist as an exception to the rules every other character and critter must follow, about astrally perceiving characters using Willpower and the Astral Combat skill.
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Dakka Dakka
post Nov 11 2009, 08:40 PM
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Interesting. Even when Projecting?
This may have something to do with the fact that their astral forms are minuscule dragons instead of humanoids.
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Stahlseele
post Nov 11 2009, 08:40 PM
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and because they can fly, they can still whack away at spirits in close combat, even if they go above the ground
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 11 2009, 08:48 PM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Nov 11 2009, 02:30 PM) *
So apparently drakes exist as an exception to the rules every other character and critter must follow, about astrally perceiving characters using Willpower and the Astral Combat skill.


To be fair, it makes more sense that way. I never liked that dual-natured beings (whether inherently or via Astral Perception) lost their ability to fight simply because their target was an astral entity. One of the perks of not being able to move as fast as an astral entity was that they still got to use their meat skills. It was kind of the whole point, especially for Dual-Natured critters. Somehow I just can't see the point of, say, some awakened grizzly bear using his Willpower and formal Astral Combat training to kill someone. What is it, Zen and the Art of Berserker Mauling?

Regardless, it's hardly the first throwback rule to make it into the Runner's Companion. Have a look at the cost for binding weapon foci in the Karma generation method tables for instance, then compare that to the core rules. It seems to be a tradition with the Companion books in each edition. They're all very, very sloppily done for the most part. Lots of cutting-and-pasting with minor edits and all that. Kind of a curse for those books. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 11 2009, 08:49 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 11 2009, 02:40 PM) *
Interesting. Even when Projecting?
This may have something to do with the fact that their astral forms are minuscule dragons instead of humanoids.

No, that wouldn't apply when projecting.
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Dakka Dakka
post Nov 11 2009, 09:14 PM
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Only against astral entities must most dual-natured beings use Astral Combat. Dual-natured and mundane opponents can be attacked with Unarmed Combat, the dual-natured beings can be attacked with Astral Combat as well. This makes sense IMHO because astral entities are that much faster that moving your body probably has no effect on them.

Waht makes you so sure, that this rule does not apply to projection, Dr. Funkenstein?
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 11 2009, 09:15 PM
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Probably the beginning of the quoted sentence: "As dual natured beings in dracoform..."
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Dakka Dakka
post Nov 11 2009, 09:18 PM
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Woops. Must have overread that.
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The Dragon Girl
post Nov 11 2009, 09:58 PM
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I have a phys adept who hasn't had to fire a single shot this campaign , the trick being to make them -really- good at what they do.. and use a chameleon suit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) because even though you can dodge bullets theres that off chance right? and its good to be able to sneak up on people before they know you're there to try and shoot you.
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