Let's say we have a dual-natured, or astrally perceiving mage. And he cast an area of effect mana spell, like mana ball. And he can see both astrally active creatures (say a non-materialized spirit, or a projecting mage), and non-magical people. Will he affect all of them with the spell?

Some of my fellow players are taking a very strict reading of the rule that says they can affect denizens of "either" plane, but that the mage has to choose which plane the spell will affect. I say that since the mage is on the same plane(s) as all potential targets, and he *can* see them, he doesn't have a choice, and they will be affected whether he likes it or not.

What say you?

First off, I swear you posted this before. If you didn't I have one hella-case of deja vu right now.

Secondly, I would have to say he would have to pick which plane to cast it on - Astral or Physical. Spells do not cross the planar threshold like that, detailed on page 173 of SR4, second paragraph of Step 3: Choose the Target(s). The rules here pretty clearly say "cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space." (emphasis added)

It should be noted, however, that if you cast it on the Astral at a spirit, and there is another dual-natured person in range, he will be affected as well.

just agreeing with neraph here. you may only target one plane with one spell. if you wish to hit both planes, you must cast 2 (or more) spells and target the planes separately with the spells as needed.

do note that dual-natured (including perceiving magicans) gets the raw deal, as they can be hit on both planes.

One option (although a poor one, in my opinion) would be to Multicast one Manaball on the Astral and one Manaball on the Physical. The drain would be annoying, but any poor dual-natured creatures in the area would be toast.

Nope. My memory is bad, but I don't think it's so bad that I've forgotten posting about it. Nor do I remember even wondering about it before. Nor do I recall ever seeing someone else's version of the question, but I could be wrong about that. And I haven't been reading here lately.

I see that the rule says either/or, but the problem is that I just don't understand how it's possible. We know that it is possible for the mage to target any of the people in question with a mana spell. We also know that (SR4 p173) Area spells affect all valid targets within the radius off effect, friend and foe alike. Neraph, you didn't include the entire sentence in your quote. It says "An astrally perceiving mage can cast spells at a target in either the physical world or the astral plane." (emphasis added) So the wording is slanted towards single-target spells. Also, it specifically says "target", and we don't (necessarily) target people with AoE spells. For example, I choose to target that spirit on the astral plane (or that point in space), and those two people on the physical plane happen to be in range, and get blasted too.

it's quite simple, really.

you are astrally projecting. you drop an AOE spell on a magician's spirit. does the AOE spell hit everything on both planes? no. no it doesn't. because it can't cross the planar barrier. you can certainly see the other people. but that doesn't mean you get to hit them. why? because the spell cannot cross the planar barrier. likewise, when you cast a spell on one plane, even if you yourself exist (in some form or another) on both planes via the dual natured power or astral perception, the spell still cannot hit both planes, because there is a barrier in between the planes.

the closest thing i can find to a quote supporting the astral/material barrier is
now, this may not be the strongest endorsement, but i am not aware of anything that particularly indicates that it works otherwise.

in any event, if you're just looking for a way to screw someone over and you're not willing to accept that your viewpoint may be wrong, you've come to the wrong place with the wrong question.

Actually, all AoE effects in this game must have a primary target from which the effect radiates outward from. In D&D you could target a point in space, and even have your fireball detonate in air a set distance out from yourself. In SR, you must target a legitimate target for your AoE to originate from.

SR4A, p. 183, Choose the Targets: "Area Spells: Some spells target areas or points in space; in this case the caster must be able to see the center of the area affected."

oh joy...

Hrmm, I must have missed this somehow. I will investigate, and see what I can come up with (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

Since spells must be targeted including AoE could one not target a dual natured being with an area of effect spell? since they are the point of propogation...

Yes, but the spell itself is still limited to being on one plane or another, as mentioned above. You could target the dual natured creature, but you still have to choose Astral or Physical.

I think what you were thinking of/referring to is the rules for dodging. Any aoe that ends up hitting people, is specifically regarded as having targeted one of them for purposes of reaction v. the targeting. I do not have the exact wording as my book is not with me.

It used to work the way Neraph described in previous editions. They seemed to have gotten rid of it in this one. It actually makes more sense this way from a purely logical point of view.

To clarify a bit on what Neraph said : even if you're using a Mana spell, you need to cast your spell in the physical OR astral realm.

My reading of the rules would be this :

A dual-natured being or a materialized spirit in the area of effect of a mana spell will be hit no matter which way you cast the spell

An astrally perceiving character is a bit trickier, but I think he should be considered the same way as a dual-natured being, as he is in both realms at once

A mundane or an Awakened character not astrally perceiving will be hit only if you cast the spell in the physical realm, because they don't have an astral presence strong enough to be affected by an astral mana spell. This can be a quick kway to sort your Street Samurai or physical adept among a heap of ghouls (obviously unless the friendlies are themselves dual-natured, but it is not the most common situation).

A spirit or an astrally projecting mage (if his body is not in the area of effect) will only be hit by an astrally cast area of effect Mana spell. If they manifest, they don't have a physical presence strong enough to be affected by a mana spell cast in the physical realm.

I agree completly with this, and was just offering an alternative where the point of propogation affects the way the energy acts.

A character using astral perception is dual-natured. There's nothing tricky about it. Creatures that are inherently dual-natured are different only in that they can never turn it off and that they don't suffer the penalty for working in both worlds. They are otherwise identical.

On an unrelated topic but related note, it's always bothered me that Pixies aren't Dual-Natured, especially when compared to other sentient critters such as Sasquatches and Centaurs. They're probably the single most magical race in the game, but they get away with being able to be purely physical? o.O

I would have worded this much nicer, but pretty much the truth.


Because they're short, that's why.

Because one day the pixie will be recognized for the true name giver race that it is! Versatile and supreme! With unstoppable cute little lizard cavalry! Behold the mighty and flexible Windli--...Pixie...yes, Pixie. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif)

The thing is that you have to 'create' and 'send out' (cast) the spell on one plane or the other. You choose a point (or a spirit or whatever) and the spell's effects radiate out from that point. The thing is that a point in astral space is not the same as a seemingly corresponding point in physical space. It is the old one way mirror analogy. An astral preceving mage is standing along the mirror, half in one room, and half in the other room.

In order to cast his spell he has to pick a point, but that point can only be in the 'astral' room or the 'physical' room, and then the spell goes out from that point, and is blocked by the mirror that divides the two rooms. Even if you target something that is standing along the mirror as well (duel natured being) you still have to target the half of it that is in one room or the other.

So, the short answer is you either hit astral forms or physical forms, but never both. If something happens to have both, you're still only hitting one or the other, but one simply mimics the other.

What?

Astral space isn't a metaplane. Astral space corresponds with the physical realm. It's not a "seemingly" corresponding point. It is a corresponding point.

Yes, and yet you can occupy a point in both the astral plane and the metaplane, thus they aren't the same. I considered leaving out the 'seemingly' and I guess I should have. They are corresponding points, but I meant that they are not one and the same.