Actually they don't the target of the powers is the adept himself. He himself however affects the world around him with enhanced abilities

Animal Empathy: give the adept an affinity for animals
Commanding Voice: makes the adepts voice commanding
Distance Strike: the magic allows the adept to strike foes without touching them. The magic does not strike them, as with a manabolt.
Enthralling Performance: Makes the adept enthralling
Inertia Strike: as distance strike
Killing Hands: as distance strike
Kinesics (?): allows the adept better control over her nonverbal and subconscious communication
Linguistics: Increases the adept's affinity for languages
Living focus (but other effects may be more noticeable): Aloows the adept to sustain a spell. The sustained spell however is a different story
Missile Mastery (?): allows the adept to throw better. the missiles are unaffacted
Nerve Strike: as distance strike
Pain Relief: possibly this is the exception. the description talks about channeling mana into the patient.
Penetrating Strike: as distance strike
Power Throw: see missile mastery
Quick Draw: allows the adpet to move his hands quicker to the weapon
Smashing Blow: as distance strike

With the possible exception of pain relief, the adept only affects himself with his powers. It shouldn't be that way. That adepts can only affect their own body with magic is the main distinction between them and mages.

Keep in mind I did say MOST adept powers but most of what you mention don't possibly qualify. Did you even bother to read half of them?
They make the adept faster, stronger or otherwise boost him up in some way.

For a few examples
Animal Empathy
*A social skill booster for animals. The skill effects the animal and the skill is boosted by the power. No signature
Kinesics
*No different then any of the other adepts skill boosters they give the adept a bonus on something, You read body language
Linguistics
*Once again only effects the adept HE can learn a language by simply hearing it.
Missile Mastery, Power Throw
*Enhances the adepts throwing power. It does make the knife magical.
Killing hands and most other unarmed modifiers turn the adepts fists into magic weapons
For comparison A weapon foci has an astral signature but it does not leave a signature behind on those it strikes.
Quick Draw
*This is little different then improved reflexes it lets the Adept do some things in a much shorter amount of time then normal
Living focus
*The foci is is the adept and not another target. The only astral signature that could be traced is that of the Magician who cast the spell. Which would lead back to the magician.


So the ones you mentioned that could possible leave a signature outside the adept.
Commanding Voice, I already mentioned this one as directly effecting others
Enthralling Performance, true
Pain Relief, true
I'll throw in voice control as I mentioned that one before.
The problem with ANY of these is they have no force, and signatures only last for hours x force.

So for everything on your list, the no force=signature lasts no hours applies. Lets say for the sake of argument Smashing Blow does leave behind a signature. It lasts for a number of hours equal to the force. Which is nothing. The signature is gone after the Adept has punched the wall.
The signature from enthraling performance is gone the moment the adept stops using the power

Now when you said Animal Empathy you may of been thinking of the initiation power Empower Animal which should leave a signature on the animal that can be traced back to the adept until the power ends. In which case lacking a force the signature is gone.

Guys. I threw these out for discussion. Beat the logic to death if you want, but there is no need to poke sticks at me.

Yes, the Force or lack thereof is an issue. My point is simply that adepts are magicians too(in the original sense as AncientHistory recently pointed out elsewhere), and they manipulate mana. That manipulation should leave traces. If those traces exist only on the adept herself, then still they exist. Some adept skills can be argued to leave an effect outside the body of the adept. Argue away. Or just ignore me.

If the definition of astral signature is based on Force, then we either throw out the idea that adepts leave signatures at all, which is really an important bonus for them, one I think is usually overlooked, or we interpret around yet another oversight in the rules.

Where did you guys get the notion that magic had to affect someone else in order to leave a signature? One is left any time a magical effect is used regardless of whether it was cast on the caster or some third party. Is Improved Reflexes boosting your abilities while you're fighting some guy in a bar? Guess what; you just left an astral signature by doing so. Using Kinesics to smooth talk that corporate secretary? You just left an astral signature. Those signatures aren't left on the people you're fighting/schmoozing. They're left in the area as a result of your manipulation of mana. Which you are doing every time you use an adept power. Adept powers aren't just a variation of Karma advancement. They're magic. Hell, forensics magicians don't even know what kind of an effect you used when spotting one unless they get a critical success (5+ hits). Signatures are purely the result of using magical skills and abilities.

The only exception might be powers that have no rating/equivalent Force. Linguistics is an example of that one. Personally, I think they should be treated as if they were Force 1, but I don't think that's backed up anywhere in the rules.

We, or at least I, don't think that the adept powers don't leave signatures. But the point is that they only leave a signature on the adept himself. So the assenser is probably better off scanning the adept than the possible signatures on him.

The other problem is that no adept power has a Force. Some have levels or ratings but not Force.

Where did we get the notion? the rule book
"Magical skills and abilities produce an astral signature on anything affected by them, which is detectable using assensing"
SR4 Rule book, page 182,(192 if using the 20th Anniversary edition)
Anything affected by them not the area where the spell was cast.
Invisibility leaves behind an astral signature either because it affects the minds of the subject.

So according to the rules signatures are left on the things affected by them. Most adept powers affect only the adept giving him some kind of bonus to his dice pools or some enhanced/new sense. The definition of the adept is he uses magic to enhance himself so that is where almost any signature would be left.

The only adept power I've found that has a force equivalent is magic sense. However the affect is once again on the adept granting him the ability to sense magic. The signature would be on him. A few initiation powers however do have active effects outside of the adept that would leave a signature and could be used to track them such as EMPOWER animal.

Oh, I see what you're trying to say now. Apparently they've changed it so that astral signatures are only left on the subject of a magical effect rather than the area the effect occurred. Time for a few house rule I suppose. Certainly makes that aspect of Cleansing (which erases the astral signatures in an area rather than a subject) useless.

Well that change must have happened sometime between 3rd and 4th edition as the exact line is in both editions of the SR4 book.

And Cleansing the area still has plenty of uses. A fireball affects the entire area everything it touches. A direct combat spell used to kill or knock out a dozen guards at once would leave behind astral signatures on every affected by it. A dozen guards to be exact. That be one dozen signatures to erase one at a time. Cleansing affects the entire area so the mage could erase the signature from every guard at once instead of one at a time.

Here is how I would rule it IMHO, adepts leave astral signatures, only those signatures are on themselves at a force equal to their magic attribute ... but here is the funny thing, I think it wouldn't really give anyone assensing them anything, since they are probably going to sense they are magical anyways, unless perhaps one of their powers had to go off recently but even then that would be really hard to pick up specifically what in their aura was used recently. *shrug* Of course, I could be totally misreading things in my SR4A.

Astral signatures are like fingerprints, and fingerprints you don't even need to make a test for (I think, this may have changed) once you successfully assense one. They're a very bad thing to leave behind at a crime scene for that very reason. So yes, it does give someone assensing them something more than 'they're magical.' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sorry, I guess you misunderstood what I was trying to say. From my limited understanding (due to lack of experience playing) when you look at people when you are astral, all you are seeing is their aura and that is based on emotions, essence, and magic. So, if you are trying to see a magical signature on something magical, I would think it was akin to looking at a powered flood lamp looking for a glow stick hidden in it. Hope that makes some sense.

Every magician manipulates magic in their own way, and those telltale differences are called an astral signature. Your aura reveals all kinds of other information, too, and the more skilled the observer, the more information they gain. If you score enough hits on your Assensing Test (I think its 3 hits), you find the signature and will recognize it whenever you see it again in the future. Forensic magicians revolve around this practice in the Sixth World.

It really is like finding a fingerprint on a vase. You just don't have to dust to find it or match it up against a database.

You don't have to dust it, but you still have to match it to your (internal) database. Also there is no correlation between the signature and the aura of a magician, just like there is none between a face and a fingerprint. So unless you witness a suspect casting a spell the signature at an earlier crime scene is useless.

I just found out that by RAW adepts (mystic or normal) cannot erase their astral signatures. In case of the former this is a real problem, in case of the latter it may be because their signatures vanish instantly anyway.

Not quite Dakka, if the magician carries any foci (and plenty do) that have their signature on it. And of course should you have a magic lodge that to would carry your signature.

This only proves that the magician who cast the spell is the same that owns the foci and/or magical lodge. It does not prove which magician that is.

Eh? Any magician who has access to astral perception can erase an astral signature. Any astral signature, not just their own.


It's enough just cause to ask them to cast a minor spell or otherwise leave an astral signature to compare it to. Which is no different than taking someone's prints. And that's purely for organizations that give a flip about the law. A group of security mages or mages in the employ of a criminal organization are going to be less worried about such a trivial thing and just blast you to oblivion if they have a reason to, or otherwise do whatever the hell they want if they're even moderately sure you're the culprit.

The point is magician, not adept or mystic adept.

Yes taking the prints is ok but the magic has to come from the magician himself. In most jurisdictions there are laws against self-incrimination.

They don't even need signatures.

Well it kinda does prove it. If you have a foci bonded to you and it carries the same signature found at the scene of a crime.
Its anidentifying mark.
Then of course you have astral tracking. If the investigator finds your signature he could trace it back to you.
It is however difficult at it requires a Extended Assensing + Intuition (5) Test (interval: 1 hour), With the threshold growing by +1 for each hour sense the link was active.

When people are arrested its standard procedure to finger print them. Given how in most places awakened people are required to register themselves as awakened. Compelling them to show their signature isn't out of the question.

...

"Magician" is a general term for adepts, mages, shaman, and everyone else who can actively practice magic.

IIRC the link between the focus and the magician, who bonded it, is only apparent when the focus is active. As with spellcasting a mage cannot be forced by law enforcement to activate a focus that is allegedly bonded by him.

@Dr. Funkenstein: Interesting interpretation. AFAIK being a magician, adept or mystic adept is mutually exclusive. What is interesting as well, is that wards can be created by any awakened creature with astral perception, not only by magicians.

<bangs his head on his desk>

Offers the number of a place to get a better desk

AFAIK anyone who can astrally precieve can erase a signature. It is just that most adepts and mystic adepts can't do that.

Also keep in mind that most adept powers are going to be similar to permanently sustained spells, as opposed to anything that is 'cast'. Improved reflexes for instance is basically always on, but you only need the bonus sometimes. Same for Kinesetics and power throw and all the others. Only one I can think of off hand that would certainly be 'cast' is that temporary attribute boost power.

Nope.




The wording should have been "awakened characters" if the intention was to allow all characters with a magic attribute to erase signatures. It could have been a simple mistake by the developers however.

Adepts can take the Astral Perception power for 1 power point. See SR4A, page 195.

That still doesn't make them magicians.