Horizon Group: What's the deal?, Discussion Thread |
Horizon Group: What's the deal?, Discussion Thread |
Nov 23 2009, 08:14 AM
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#26
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
If the new corp book really makes it so such that Horizon is the "good" corp, it wouldn't surprise me. After all, if there is anything consistent with Shadowrun, it is somewhere somehow sometime someone will pull a surprise out of the bag. And the "evil" corps have been such a truism, a good corp could upend the table on our assumptions and drag us out of our comfortable little safehouses like SURGE did.
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Nov 23 2009, 10:31 AM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 992 Joined: 2-August 06 Member No.: 9,006 |
Honestly, Horizon scares me the most of any corp, not because of all their stuff like
educational softs, media manipulation, etc...No, what scares me about them is... The Dawkins Group. Seriously: a group that is all about manipulating memes? That is scary stuff right there. In fact, if they truly master it, then they can destroy the other Triple A's merely by making the world culture anti-thetical to them...And, of course, if you think Kline is a good guy, well....read the short fiction with him in it in Seattle 2072. The guy is not nice.. |
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Nov 23 2009, 10:38 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 224 Joined: 4-September 09 From: Poland Member No.: 17,594 |
Well, my bet is on new AIs - Horizon was the first to deal with them, right? Maybe they started to cooperate before 2070, and Horizon has AAA status thanks to AIs' help?
And/or Hestaby - that makes sense. She had her own team of otaku in 2060's, so she could work with AIs and technomancers as well. |
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Nov 23 2009, 02:08 PM
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#29
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,536 Joined: 13-July 09 Member No.: 17,389 |
I understand what you are saying - but that doesn't change what I wrote. Horizon have yet to display anything TRULY evil, at least nothing on the scale of Aztechnology. Hence my comment. And they certainly aren't agents for The Enemy - otherwise I doubt they'd be opposing Aztechnology's entry into California. No, Invae are a much more likely explanation, at least if those are they only two. Likewise, Hestaby being behind Horizon is equally likely. Granted Shadowrun isn't intended to be a complete dystopia - so who is to say that the mega wouldn't be her shot at trying to build a mega that is trying to do things differently? I'm going to take a line from the dumpshock wiki... "The most recent addition to the Corporate Court, Horizon (also known as the Horizon Group) is a AAA megacorporation that focuses on public relations, media, and entertainment. Its main headquarters is in Los Angeles. While Horizon is best known for its presence in all aspects of advertising, marketing, and entertainment, it also has subsidiaries in consumer goods and services, real estate and development, and pharmaceuticals." The evilness of Horizon is essentially their ability to sway the masses. They can present more favorable advertisements for their products while making it harder for their competitors products to get as much air time. It becomes a self-propagating machine. Horizon, to me at least, is an example of what Google can become and Horizon shows why I am slightly afraid of Google. Horizon is, to an extent, far more tyrannical and insidious than any of the other AAAs. Aztechnology is fairly obvious in its tyranny, the same can be said about most of the other corps. It's tangible and it's something that easily identified that you can fight against. Horizon, on the outward appearance, doesn't appear evil to most of the public, but the truth is that they have far more control over the thoughts and whims of the general populace than any of the other corps. It's not tangible, it's kind of hard to identify, and how do you fight against what essentially amounts to limited mind control? Using Assassin's Creed as an example.... Horizon is like the Templars. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) |
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Nov 23 2009, 03:46 PM
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#30
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,328 Joined: 2-April 07 From: The Center of the Universe Member No.: 11,360 |
In fact, if they truly master it, then they can destroy the other Triple A's merely by making the world culture anti-thetical to them...And, of course, if you think Kline is a good guy, well....read the short fiction with him in it in Seattle 2072. The guy is not nice.. Hey, he just played his card right given the siuation....Machevellian yes....evil....not really. |
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Nov 23 2009, 04:21 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 27-March 08 Member No.: 15,819 |
So option seems split on:
1) They're Nice! 2) They're Not Nice! Regardless of where you stand, I'm interested in where you think Horizon came from. I figure creating a top tier corp takes years, decades of extremely detailed planning, so how do you put together a AAA in an extremely short time, without the other AAAs poaching the building blocks first? Who has the money to make it happen- that isn't already backing another MegaCorp? How do you quietly coordinate the whole thing? (and weirdly, Cline was formerly a simsense star) I don't remember seeing a list of major investors- but it would be interesting. Hmmm... Now I'm looking forward to the Corp Guide more than ever! |
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Nov 23 2009, 04:24 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 687 Joined: 22-October 09 Member No.: 17,783 |
I don't think the real powers behind the throne matter, Cline's operation proves the business model of spending money on your people, networking in a proactive manner, and generally treating your people well enough you get more out of them. I have no doubt they have a nasty side, the Dawkins Group is just a bit frightening and I don't believe for a second things are all happyness and light for someone that screws up or underperforms for too long but going only by what has been written about them they definately are a lighter shade of grey.
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Nov 23 2009, 04:37 PM
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#33
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,899 Joined: 29-October 09 From: Leiden, the Netherlands Member No.: 17,814 |
I'm rather impatient for the corporate guide anyways. I wish they'd focus a bit more on the corps instead of all the magical craziness.
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Nov 23 2009, 04:45 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 27-March 08 Member No.: 15,819 |
"2063—Several high-profile media and industry players in LA meet and draw up the charter for the Horizon Group. They appoint former action simstar Gary Cline as their CEO."
Gary is smart, driven and above all, charismatic. But he's no Knight. My guess he's also expendable. |
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Nov 23 2009, 04:55 PM
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#35
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
PCC also seems to be backing them...
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Nov 23 2009, 04:59 PM
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#36
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,141 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 2,048 |
Maybe you have to accept that a group wearing big beards and smoking pipes can be real contenders for world dominance. I mean besides Marx and Engels of course.
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Nov 23 2009, 06:10 PM
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#37
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,328 Joined: 2-April 07 From: The Center of the Universe Member No.: 11,360 |
Maybe you have to accept that a group wearing big beards and smoking pipes can be real contenders for world dominance. I mean besides Marx and Engels of course. Nah, Marx and Engels never had chance. Now the Stalins and Mao's using Marx and Engels as justification for their actions, they were contenders. However, those espousing Hayek and Adam Smith won that gambit (for now). |
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Nov 23 2009, 07:05 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 574 Joined: 22-June 09 From: Ucluelet - Tofino - Nanaimo Salish-Sahide Council Member No.: 17,309 |
I think Horizon doesn't actually exist and is instead an experiment in global scale disinformation campaigns. (which explains why it sprang up so fast.) That said, I'm not sure who stands to gain from this angle. If Horizon was fake, wouldn't that give whoever is behind it a second vote on the corporate council? Not sure who gains either but then I would need info on who benefits from how they vote. "2063—Several high-profile media and industry players in LA meet and draw up the charter for the Horizon Group. They appoint former action simstar Gary Cline as their CEO." Gary is smart, driven and above all, charismatic. But he's no Knight. My guess he's also expendable. I read this like a bunch of smaller time single A corps the AAA corps have been poaching from got together to form a AAA corp. A corp co-op? |
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Nov 23 2009, 07:14 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 304 Joined: 29-October 09 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 17,812 |
Well, if it *was* a single mega behind it, I would think they would have the power to just snap up the company that actually holds the corporate seat; although that would probably spark a corporate war (which could be the reason why they did it this way.)
I thought it more likely that a non-corporate group had formed a corporation for the benefits a seat conferred; or that it's possible that there isn't actually a *seat* at all; there's only 9 on the court, and everyone who knew that fact was in on the deal... (why the last one would be true I have no idea; I think the first two are the most likely if one were to go with the "Horizon Doesn't Really Exist!" plot.) |
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Nov 23 2009, 08:00 PM
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#40
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,849 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Melbourne, Australia Member No.: 872 |
If Horizon was fake, wouldn't that give whoever is behind it a second vote on the corporate council? Not sure who gains either but then I would need info on who benefits from how they vote. That implies they already have a vote - which may not be the case. - J. |
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Nov 23 2009, 08:08 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 27-March 08 Member No.: 15,819 |
I read this like a bunch of smaller time single A corps the AAA corps have been poaching from got together to form a AAA corp. A corp co-op? "2063—Several high-profile media and industry players in LA meet and draw up the charter for the Horizon Group. " I think there is something very off with the phrase right there. A bunch of TedTurners/directors/StudioOwners/MediaGuys don't just get together and found a AAA out of the blue one day(Rupert Murdoch... maybe?). Now, the story sounds good, I'll give you that, and everyone (especially Horizon) needs a nice origin story. Put it together, and it sounds like start of a disinformation campaign to me. |
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Nov 23 2009, 10:04 PM
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#42
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,899 Joined: 29-October 09 From: Leiden, the Netherlands Member No.: 17,814 |
In the beginning, God created Horizon and Earth...
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Nov 23 2009, 10:15 PM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 492 Joined: 28-July 09 Member No.: 17,440 |
I'd say there's something buried and hidden in their origin at the very least.
Everything else, well, who really knows when the source of the info is coming from the ones you're trying to get the info on? You can't trust anything or immediately dismiss anything either. |
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Nov 23 2009, 10:35 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 304 Joined: 29-October 09 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 17,812 |
That implies they already have a vote - which may not be the case. - J. They could technically have more than one vote (there are 13 seats and 10 triple-A corporations). Only Seven of those of are Guaranteed: Ares, ORO, JRJ International, Mitsuhama Computers, Keruba, BMW, and Shiawase You'll notice that several of those are holding corporations or wholly owned subsidiaries of the megas. Of these, JRJ International and BMW are both feasibly buyable (as has happened several times with JRJ.) which would transfer control of that guaranteed seat. Good Luck getting BMW from a dragon. |
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Nov 23 2009, 10:36 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 278 Joined: 26-June 09 Member No.: 17,321 |
I'm sorry to say it but their is NO WAY, Horizion got where it is by being all candy and sugercain. Their something worse then the azzys and the bug spirts combined, trust me.
You don't make your bussines controlling what people think unless you've got an agenda, might not even be a "evil" one. Their either Dues or someone with a similer mindset, trust me. Scary part, they'll get away with it.... Every other group out their with a world ending scheme has be refuted, or at least bufferd of from their goal but this time horizion will change the world forever. Count on it. Basicy what I'm trying to say is: Their abstergo, strait out of assassins creed. Their going to save humanity from itself and make it happy about it too. (and no I havn't been playing the second one, I'm waiting for the PC realise) |
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Nov 23 2009, 11:10 PM
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#46
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Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,946 Joined: 1-June 09 From: Omaha Member No.: 17,234 |
I'm sorry to say it but their is NO WAY, Horizion got where it is by being all candy and sugercain. No one said they had, however in the scheme of things there is a lot of room to be a "good corp" especially when compared to outfits like the Azzies. Their not sweetness and light, their a megacorp but they've figured out that being a "good megacorp" is a viable strategy. QUOTE Their something worse then the azzys and the bug spirts combined, trust me. You don't make your bussines controlling what people think unless you've got an agenda, might not even be a "evil" one. Their either Dues or someone with a similer mindset, trust me. Scary part, they'll get away with it.... So wait, in lack of evidence to the contrary your whole argument against a plausibly of a company for whom a positive public image is part of their bottom line and spin is we should trust you implicitly. I'm not saying your certainly wrong but you must be aware of the irony right? For my part I sincerely hope that there is not another Bug Invasion, Mega-AI, or AOEDBS* behind horizon. I can deal with megacorp power plays and PR spin much easier in the framework of shadowrun even if I understand. "Good" by megacorporate standards doesn't equate with "Good" by human standards. But i've loved Horizon every since i read the story aobut them in Seattle 2072 and I'm intrigued by their part of the LA writeup in corporate enclaves. *Any other Earth Dawn Bull Shit |
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Nov 24 2009, 12:38 AM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 278 Joined: 26-June 09 Member No.: 17,321 |
No one said they had, however in the scheme of things there is a lot of room to be a "good corp" especially when compared to outfits like the Azzies. Their not sweetness and light, their a megacorp but they've figured out that being a "good megacorp" is a viable strategy. The kind of raw power to do what horizon has done can't be obtained without snapping a few necks and performing a few perverted rituals in your back rooms with the bodies.* What I'm saying is, to gain power, control and money you don't need to be the good guys, that’s been shown all over shadowrun. The only reason you make yourself out to be the good guys, when you've buried enough bodies in your backyard to get to your current position is if you want control over the hearts and souls of the people who gaze upon you. Theirs better ways to earn money than to have the hearts and souls of people (most of wich are excluded by being the goodguys), but if your goal is to be something more than a megacorp, if you want to change the world, than theirs no better way than to build up a reputation of being the paladian in shineing armour. Of course I might be wrong, but do you realy think horizion couldn't do what their currently doing if they were as corrupt as the other AAAs? *I don't mean this in a literal sense, their horizon, not the Azzys. What I'm saying their is that to pop out of this air like that you need some serius power and that typicall comes from a dark place. |
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Nov 24 2009, 12:40 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Validating Posts: 664 Joined: 7-October 08 From: South-western UCAS border... Member No.: 16,449 |
And, of course, if you think Kline is a good guy, well....read the short fiction with him in it in Seattle 2072. The guy is not nice.. You can't really hold it against someone when they do what is in their own best interest... Kill them for it? Absolutely. But, holding it against them is illogical. |
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Nov 24 2009, 12:42 AM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 278 Joined: 26-June 09 Member No.: 17,321 |
Theirs also a third possible option, what if Horizion is something powerfull, but its actualy someone trying to help humanity? And not in the dark "I'm going to enslave you for your own good" type. A would be massiah, trying to reach out by giveing horizion the power it need in return for its help as a front for its goals?
You think so? Ya me neither. |
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Nov 24 2009, 12:42 AM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 278 Joined: 26-June 09 Member No.: 17,321 |
Cursed double-post.
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