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> Perception and Range, ...or how do you know when you've gone too far?
Muspellsheimr
post Nov 29 2009, 08:46 AM
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With Astral scouting / Perception, you do not need to worry about the standard Visual modifiers, such as the Chameleon Suit. You are still subject to distance modifiers, & must still beat the sniper's Infiltration Hits. Further, there are other modifiers that may apply.
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Jack Kain
post Nov 29 2009, 10:57 AM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Nov 29 2009, 02:46 AM) *
With Astral scouting / Perception, you do not need to worry about the standard Visual modifiers, such as the Chameleon Suit. You are still subject to distance modifiers, & must still beat the sniper's Infiltration Hits. Further, there are other modifiers that may apply.

Unless the sniper instead of a chemelon suit has a blanket made of the same material and under it a biofiber blanket. Shadowrunners can use the stuff for a smuggling compartment why not to prot
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Nov 29 2009, 11:04 AM
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Because it's alive, too - and dual. It's like trying to conceal yourself with floodlights: Sure people are not going to see you...
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Traul
post Nov 29 2009, 01:58 PM
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For the physical perception, I would roll an Opposed Perception vs Desguise (cammo) test. This leaves all possibilities open but the sniper should be safe if he does not glitch.
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Mercer
post Nov 29 2009, 04:13 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Nov 29 2009, 12:04 PM) *
Because it's alive, too - and dual. It's like trying to conceal yourself with floodlights: Sure people are not going to see you...


In an abandoned urban environment it would stand out ("There's no sniper, but there is a perfecty square patch of grass over there.") but in the wilderness, it would help to blend in with all the living material around.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Nov 29 2009, 04:22 PM
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QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Nov 28 2009, 03:34 PM) *
The team is going after an escaped experimental biodrone in the Cascade foothills, East of present-day Enumclaw, WA. The map is a fairly open wooded area. With the exception of a few boulders, most of the available cover was trees, which are pretty low on the Barrier table - the sniper used the indirect fire rules with his spotter drones and shot them right through the trunk. As the players picked off the drones, he lost his edge, and eventually got run down by the CybOrk with the Olfactory sensor. Hacking the drones is a good idea, but the team's Rigger was on GM duty this week. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



I wrestled with realism vs. game balance there. A smart sniper takes the shot and gets the hell out of there; a smart sniper could probably wipe out the team before they could get to him. Since this is the first sniper this bunch of players has had to face, I decided to start off a little less then maximum lethality - no AP or Ex-Ex rounds, no called shots, no shoot and scoot or calls to other units for support. Mostly an exercise in Perception tests and long-range fire. It was still pretty effective - one PC KO'd and two more then halfway to KO'd. Considering this was supposed to be a minor encounter, I think making him any smarter could have been a TPK at the wrong point in the story.



Hey, It sounds like it worked out well for you...

As for the realism, realism kills PC's more often than not... I liked your solution (Besides, Story trumps realism, as long as it is not too cheesy that is)... And you are right, a good sniper will indeed tend to wipe out characters...

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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Nov 29 2009, 04:33 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Nov 29 2009, 04:04 AM) *
Because it's alive, too - and dual. It's like trying to conceal yourself with floodlights: Sure people are not going to see you...



But the natural flora is also alive and if you are using the natural flora to conceal you, you still have problems for the mage, trying to suss out the person from the flora may become problematic, especially if the sniper is skilled...

EDIT: Damn... Ninjad by Mercer

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Ascalaphus
post Nov 29 2009, 05:07 PM
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Drones that catch sight of the bullet and some math software should be able to make a pretty good estimate of where a shot came from. I'm giving thought to investing in a small swarm of drones with lots of sensors to log everything that happens around me for later replay, analysis, datamining and archive comparison to things that happen later in the campaign.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Nov 29 2009, 05:10 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Nov 29 2009, 10:07 AM) *
Drones that catch sight of the bullet and some math software should be able to make a pretty good estimate of where a shot came from. I'm giving thought to investing in a small swarm of drones with lots of sensors to log everything that happens around me for later replay, analysis, datamining and archive comparison to things that happen later in the campaign.


A good idea, but in the immediacy of the moment, not all that useful, unless you are analyzing in real time (which you can do fairly easily, depending upon the situation)... Later replay will not help you against the Sniper...

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Tachi
post Nov 29 2009, 05:53 PM
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And, your recordings could be used as evidence against you if you're caught.

It's kinda like those idiots who taped themselves shooting people with paintball guns, or the ones who taped themselves destroying houses.
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Ascalaphus
post Nov 29 2009, 06:03 PM
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Well, you should rig it so it'll destroy the memory if you're going to get caught. But usually, your gear and the place you're caught are sufficient evidence to put you away anyway.


QUOTE
A good idea, but in the immediacy of the moment, not all that useful, unless you are analyzing in real time (which you can do fairly easily, depending upon the situation)


The mathematics of tracing a bullet back to it's origin aren't all that complex; if you have readings on the trajectory and speed of the bullet, any commlink should be able to make an estimate.

I'd say computing where a bullet came from could be done as a Threshold = Range, Complex Action check with a BulletTrace+Sensor program check for drones, and BulletTrace+Logic for people with a Math SPU or something equivalent.
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Mercer
post Nov 29 2009, 06:50 PM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Nov 29 2009, 12:27 AM) *
Perhaps if the characters had some form of tactical knowledge, they could guesstimate where he is from the direction of the shots came from.


I've been thinking it would be LOG + Tactics, except that Tactics is a specialization of the Leadership skill and that seems odd to me. Would a knowledge skill be more appropriate here (Ballistics, or something similar)?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Nov 29 2009, 06:54 PM
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QUOTE (Mercer @ Nov 29 2009, 11:50 AM) *
I've been thinking it would be LOG + Tactics, except that Tactics is a specialization of the Leadership skill and that seems odd to me. Would a knowledge skill be more appropriate here (Ballistics, or something similar)?


We use both ballistics and Tactics as additional Knowledge Skills... the specialty for Leadership in Tactics would apply to get the individuals to FOLLOW your tactical choices, but the Knowledge skill would help you develop them in the first place... (Military Professional Skill would also work too)

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Mercer
post Nov 29 2009, 07:43 PM
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I'm a little wary making sniper spotting the domain of a knowledge skill when there are active skills that can do the job. (BBB: "They are used primarily for legwork and character development. They occasionally provide information in the game, but have nowhere near the impact that Active skills do.") That's my main reservation there.

Why not LOG + Longarms?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Nov 29 2009, 09:14 PM
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QUOTE (Mercer @ Nov 29 2009, 12:43 PM) *
I'm a little wary making sniper spotting the domain of a knowledge skill when there are active skills that can do the job. (BBB: "They are used primarily for legwork and character development. They occasionally provide information in the game, but have nowhere near the impact that Active skills do.") That's my main reservation there.

Why not LOG + Longarms?



No, I understand... We use it as a complimentary skill to Perception Rolls so it may possibly help narrow down the options from a great many (which is in many ways the province of using Knowledge Skills, as Complimentary rolls)... I would say that you could also use Log + Longarms, but that pool is usually a lot less than the Perception roll and has an even smaller chance of succeeding in my opinion...

But it could definitely work...

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Mercer
post Nov 29 2009, 10:24 PM
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I would see it as a series of tests. INT+Per+whatev to spot the sniper, but that would likely fail for the reasons provided (high threshold from Infiltration, severly penalized pools). So then it becomes a series of LOG+Tactics and LOG + Longarms to determine the most advantageous places to snipe from, and the ones that match the trajectory of the rounds. Then it becomes, "How do we get there?" Especially if by the time you get there, the sniper has moved to another spot.

I think every war movie has a variation on this scene.
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MikeKozar
post Nov 29 2009, 10:38 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Nov 29 2009, 09:07 AM) *
Drones that catch sight of the bullet and some math software should be able to make a pretty good estimate of where a shot came from. I'm giving thought to investing in a small swarm of drones with lots of sensors to log everything that happens around me for later replay, analysis, datamining and archive comparison to things that happen later in the campaign.


Neat idea! I think I recall that happening in 'Snow Crash' - Hiro's high-tech suit popped up all sorts of information telling him he'd been shot and how, which was played as creeping features and information overload. Yes, computer, I realize I've been shot, thank you. However, if one of the PCs in my little sniper duel had a similar program running, it could well have narrowed down the angle much quicker, especially if they could triangulate after taking a few hits. Let's see, it came from this angle when I was over there, and that angle when I was over here, draw a few lines on the map and...dude's gotta be next to that stump.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 30 2009, 01:31 AM
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QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Nov 28 2009, 03:51 AM) *
My question is, how far do you guys generally consider these distance rules to be in effect? Obviously there are a lot of things that can make things hard to spot, but what would be fair? 500m and 1000m? 250 and 500? 1000 and 3000?

I had a much better explained post typed out when the forums died, and I don't have it in me to be quite as detailed a second time. So I'll just give a summary of what I tend to do when I'm running a game and situations like this come out.

Basically, I just use the fundamental rules for weapon ranges. I start by picking a weapon category based upon the environment (I have a really nice little chart in my binder for just this thing). For example, if the runners were standing in the middle of the salt plains on a clear summer day, I'd go with a Sniper Rifle whereas on a city street I'd use a Light Pistol. If it's an insanely busy street, I'd use choose a Taser. Then I'd apply penalties to the Perception Test using those ranges. Anything beyond that range is just too far out of sight unless its blatantly obvious (but I have modifiers for that sort of thing, too).

Vision Magnification works just like it does in combat situations and, if it is being used, it also extends the ranges by half the same amount. Thus someone on a city street using Vision Magnification would stand a chance of spotting an average target at up to 75 meters. Anything beyond that and they're just too far away.

There's a bit more to it than this, but that's the basics of what I do. Most of my house rules tend to be unwieldly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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toturi
post Nov 30 2009, 02:10 AM
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QUOTE (Mercer @ Nov 30 2009, 06:24 AM) *
I would see it as a series of tests. INT+Per+whatev to spot the sniper, but that would likely fail for the reasons provided (high threshold from Infiltration, severly penalized pools). So then it becomes a series of LOG+Tactics and LOG + Longarms to determine the most advantageous places to snipe from, and the ones that match the trajectory of the rounds. Then it becomes, "How do we get there?" Especially if by the time you get there, the sniper has moved to another spot.

I would ask that an Int + Per test - at the appropriate thresholds you can spot the sniper, but at certain fixed thresholds, you could spot the general direction of the shot with the information being more specific at higher thresholds.

Then it is a tactics test. For me, it can either be a Int or Log + (whatever) Tactics test, depending on which type of Knowledge skill (most likely either Professional or Street) it is.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Nov 30 2009, 02:44 AM
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QUOTE (Mercer @ Nov 29 2009, 03:24 PM) *
I would see it as a series of tests. INT+Per+whatev to spot the sniper, but that would likely fail for the reasons provided (high threshold from Infiltration, severly penalized pools). So then it becomes a series of LOG+Tactics and LOG + Longarms to determine the most advantageous places to snipe from, and the ones that match the trajectory of the rounds. Then it becomes, "How do we get there?" Especially if by the time you get there, the sniper has moved to another spot.

I think every war movie has a variation on this scene.



I can definitely see it going this way... though I would use the Tactics Knowledge skill (or Military Profession Skill) in place of the Leadership tactics skill in this scenario... Longarms would work as you indicated though...

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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Nov 30 2009, 02:47 AM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 29 2009, 06:31 PM) *
There's a bit more to it than this, but that's the basics of what I do. Most of my house rules tend to be unwieldly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



Interesting... But a question...

Why do you tend to make them unwieldy? Why not go for simplicity and ease of play?

Just Curious...

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Mercer
post Nov 30 2009, 05:18 AM
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Simple rules tend to be fast but bland. Complex rules tend to be slow but detailed. The alchemy becomes making the rules that play as fast as possible while giving you the level of detail you want. That would be my answer.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Dec 1 2009, 02:36 AM
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QUOTE (Mercer @ Nov 29 2009, 10:18 PM) *
Simple rules tend to be fast but bland. Complex rules tend to be slow but detailed. The alchemy becomes making the rules that play as fast as possible while giving you the level of detail you want. That would be my answer.


Makes an odd sort of sense, I guess... But in my opinion, fast and easy rules allow more time for the actual roleplaying portion of the game... Which I tend to enjoy a great deal... a lot of mechanics just tend to get in the way, which is why I like SR4... For even less mechanics and high action, you just can't beat Feng Shui though...

Was just curious...

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Cthulhudreams
post Dec 1 2009, 02:50 AM
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Snipers are not really functional challenges in this sort of game without GM fiat. Either you don't spot them and they kill you from hiding by surprise or you know they are there and they don't.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Dec 1 2009, 02:59 AM
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QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Nov 30 2009, 07:50 PM) *
Snipers are not really functional challenges in this sort of game with GM fiat. Either you don't spot them and they kill you from hiding by surprise or you know they are there and they don't.


Which is why you rarely see them in actual play I would imagine... It is way to easy to set up the TPK using a highly skilled Sniper... having been on the receiving end of such a scenario, I know exactly how brutal it is... In the end, the Sniper killed 5 fairly competent individuals and heavily wounded 2 more before the remaining members managed to pull out... it was way brutal, even after we knew what was going on... (average PC Karma Gain at the time was close to 200)

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