Can't be done, you say?

50 BP on cash = 250000Y
10 BP on born rich, and 10 MORE bp on cash +50000Y
30BP in debt = +30000Y
5bp Restricted Gear: Response six chip(you seriously want this for a cyborg)
= 330000 Nuyen, -45BP.
I'm sure this leaves you with plenty of BP to make an interesting character.

IF your GM let you have an Otomo or an Akiyama or an Otomo, is there any reason it wouldn't come with a CCU? I mean, Duh, its a cyborg. Cyborg adaptation is a standard modification.

If you still have to pay for a body, Arsenal has a few good choices for sticking your CCU into. A used Dodge Guardian might be a good choice. Ideally, you would want something a bit bigger than a large drone, and small enough to go up stairs, but with enough room to fit a mechanical arm or two. The Thundercloud Contrail seems to be a good choice, its special ability giving it ten mod slots. (The idea being here to approximate the size of a cyborg walker, since you can't design vehicles from scratch in SR4)

The implant with the brain is 250k + let's say Otomo 150k ...

Has the design became a NPC I can do anything, but I'm looking to do a Balanced NPC, like an AI in a Killer-Toy.

Now, let's look at what you -get- for your CCU. Checking augmentation on 158, and arsenal on 134, we get....
A rating 4 Commlink (2000Y value, plus 6500 for the rating 4 - either at DIY costs or Avalon+OS. its about the same either way.)
Hot-sim for the commlink (5000Y value)
Simsense Booster (aug 37, 65000Y value)
A Control Rig (10000Y value)
A rating 6 damage compensator, for dealing with rigging biofeedback. (90000Y value)
Rating 5 skillwires. (10000Y value)
12 more cybernetic capacity.
Immunity to contact and inhaled toxins
Junk to keep you alive.
Annnd .1 essence.

Thats 188500 nuyen in deltaware. Suddenly, an Akiyama seems like a bargian deal, and CCU's almost affordable.

Being able to get 5 IP priceless ... (4 in physical world and one to play Shadowrun MMO)

I see you. What I am saying is, well.... okay, look at arsenal. Specifically, the cyborg adaptation modification on 134. You'll see it costs 15k+250K, has availability, threshold, slots, yada yada - and it lists the benefits you get, quite clearly. Looking at the Off The Rack Vehicles With Upgrades, we see that vehicles with upgrades listed in their description use the normal rules, but don't use slots, and don't count as modified. The akiyama, the otomo and the tomino -all- come with Cyborg Adaptation as standard. This is why they are so expensive, and have such a high availability. Adapation included, CCU included, brain not included. Not 250k+150k. Just 150k.

IF your gm lets you start with a cyborg model, it is clearly the best, most cost-effective way to get a cyborg. You get the adaptation mod, and all the trimmings, included for free with it. Because, really, a mass-produced cyborg model would be a lot cheaper than slapping a cyborg mod on any random vehicle.

Alternatively, if you don't have GM intervention, Restricted Gear and Cyborg Adaptation(availability 18) on whatever vehicle you can afford is entirely within the stock character creation rules.

The cyborg adaptation and CCU are 2 diferent things . So to play a cyborg it's still 400k ...

If the AI is in a Bust-A-Move (Action figure model) imagine the surprise. They hire that guy : http://www.gearfuse.com/wp-content/uploads...-man-figure.jpg . Thinking it's a Giant Drone controlled by a Rigger and BAM they see that 24" tall action figure. The Laugh !

In Arsenal it tells you that the Cyborg Adaptation is the plug to put the CCU. The CCU is still 250k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

You would think so! Yes. it says its 250k. But.... find me an availability and price listing for the CCU. Its not in augmentation. It doesn't have its own cyberware listing like invoked memory stimulators, or biodrone components. The only costing is included in Cyborg Adaptation.

Which the -entirety of- is included for free, due to natural modifications.

All i'm saying is, if you buy a bonafide cyborg model, you get the CCU included. Outside of character creation, which is normally the only way to get one, finding a deltaware clinic to put a brain in it is still up to the player.

CCU p.163 in Augmentation ... Accessing a Delta Clinic ... that is the Hardest. Having the Cyborg Enabled Body... and the rest ...

You don't need all the info to know it's nearly impossible.

Only the expanded description of what it does and how it works. The rules for the acquiring the physical product those rules apply to - are in arsenal on 134.

In the description in page 134 of Arsenal, it only describe that the Cyborg Adaptation is the requied mod to accept a CCU. The CCU is described there but the price is in Augmentation.

Yes. Now you're getting it. The CCU is, in fact, bundled in with Cyborg Adaptation, as an additional cost. Check out 131 if you don't believe it.

Which comes as a stock modification with an akiyama, otomo, or tomino. Much like a GM-nissan doberman model is so much cheaper than the autosofts it comes with, one of those 3 standard cyborg models is significantly cheaper than buying a CCU straight up. (At availability 24, which sucks, but buying the CCU seperately has its own advantages, like putting it on helicopters.)

Again the Adaptation is not the CCU ... it's only the link part for the CCU. The CCU is the Wet and Hardware. Meaning that it's the Brain and Bocal. That has a price : 250k.

The Drone to Accept that piece of Wet and Hardware need the Adaptation plug in so they can be compatible. Wich they are included in certain Drones. (Otomo, Assasin and the other one.) At 150k for the Otomo, 250k for the assasin and the other one I don't know. They don't have the CCU only the wiring.

If we take the Adaptation mod in any other Drones, then they are capable of taking the 250k CCU.

---Edit---
If it only cost 15k for a CCU (That's is what you are saying), you would see a lot more Cyborg on the street and the Devs won't tell that cyborgs are unbalancing and should not be played.

Thats not what i'm saying at all. I am saying you by cyborg adapt any vehicle for 15k. As as addon cost, you may get a CCU for 250k, much like an iball may have an additional flashpak for some additional nuyen, but its still the same item. Nothing changes except the cost. You may acquire a CCU With the Adaptation mod, for additional cost.

What I am saying is an Otomo has a Cyborg adaptation, AND a CCU, for its same normal price, without any further modification, because that is how natural modifications work. If a vehicle has a mod listed in its description, it simply has that mod.(In the case of the otomo, that means it has the -entire- mod. Not just the plug) Seriously. Go read the rules, instead of quoting your opinion and fluff text at me.

As to dev balancing? Cyborg Models(No, not adaptation. The ones in the arsenal drone section) are ALL availability 24. They are not meant to be available to players. To put things into perspective, that is as much as a firelance or naval railgun. Players are, in general, never supposed to touch them.

But the Otomo has no CCU only the adaptation. So it still cost 400k to get the Otomo being a Cyborg and not only a Anthroform Drone.

As to tell me that I can't read the rules, I've could said the same to you. Fluff your opinion all you want, the CCU cost 250k and it does not include any DRONES in it. A brain in a Bocal ...

Wrong. CCU is listed under cyborg adaptation, which that particular drone gets for free. There is absolutely no reason that half the modification doesn't apply, because the cost is 0Y.(Included with the otomo, remember? It simply has the entire mod - ALL the text listed there - out of the box)

Re type of the Augmentation
Cyborgs as PCs
Cyborg characters are intended primarily as NPC adversaries. Nonetheless, many players may find cyborgs present an exciting roleplaying challenge. Keep in mind that these characters are not balanced with player characters created using the standard character creation system. Using cyborgs as player characters is not recommended. For the gamemaster and gaming group comfortable with this imbalance, here are a few suggestions about accommodating this.
A cyborg requires access to delta-grade implants. This essential modification raises the entry price of a CCU to 250,000¥.

P. 162

That's for the CCU alone. no drone included ...

Next step, ask Synner ... Or any other Catalyst officials !

I agree with you. The CCU does cost 250,000. Normally.

However, I'm assuming the dev who wrote that sidebar knew that there was no way to start with a tomino, akiyama, or otomo, because they are availability twenty four. Even if they DO get a cheap CCU, they are simply not possible to acquire with restricted gear.

A cyborg adaptation, however, IS, because its availability 18. In that case, under standard chargen, it would be the only way to play a cyborg, and would thus have a 250k entry price.

IF your gm lets you start with one of the arsenal cyborg drones, then you're golden. If not, dealing with the full price of the CCU is your only option.

Reread page 162 ... And I sent a mail to Catalyst, so we just have to wait. I'm sure I'm right ... The CCU is not included.

Yes. The sidebar says it costs 250k. We already knew that, because thats how much it costs in arsenal. The sidebar on 162 also says the entire sidebar are merely suggestions.

You'll also note, in the entirety of augmentation, there is no table for CCU's, like there are for invoked memory stimulators. It is not, in fact, a seperate unit you can buy. If you want to play a cyberzombie, it tells you the rules, the requirements, and then gives you cost and availability for the a necessary piece of equipment.

For a cyborg, it tells you to look at another book for that piece of equipment, and only expands upon what it does. It does not change the rules for getting one.


Within the confines of the rules there are two ways to play a cyborg.
1) use restricted gear to buy a cyborg adaptation and a CCU, at full price, and put it on whatever vehicle you can afford with the cash you get from In Debt.

2) Beg your Gm for a cyborg drone from arsenal. This is normally not a valid option, as it requires breaking availability rules, even with runner's companion options. As i've been saying the entire thread, it IS the best option, and most convenient way for a player to -be- a cyborg.

When I have the answer of a dev about the CCU and the Drone I'll take the answer they give me.

Does a vehicle with rigger adaption have the rigger on lifetime contract included in its price? Or does a subcompact (with the interface for manual steering) come with a chauffeur for free? By your logic it would

I vote Delarn.

Omgs, Udoshi, do you have -any- actual evidence that they are included together, besides your assumptions about the rules and what the devs "intended?"

Arsenal explicitly states:
1) That the CCU cost is in addition to the Cyborg Mod.
2) The Cyborg Mod is the plug in, that allows the CCU to interact with the drone. (Just as a rigger needs a black box to rig a drone.)
3) The specific drones which are being debated are listed as having integrated Cyborg Mods. Nowhere does it says you get a brain jar as part of the deal.

Just because the devs forgot to include a cost for something, or list it on a table, does not mean it's magically included.

Look at it this way: the CCU costs 250,000. The cyborg mod costs 15,000 to install after the fact. Yes, autosofts, turrets, other mods which are bundled with a drone/vehicle/gun get a price savings. However, what your saying is that not only do you save 100,000 on the CCU, you effectively get a free anthro drone with all the fixins to go with it?

You don't think that sounds like just a little to much of a good deal? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif) ?

Glad to see that some one think like me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ...

That's why I'm making a small (24") Drone that look like the hulkbuster ironman !

As an aside, your example is exactly wrong. SR4A 350, first sentence.

The key thrust of the argument seems to be "Well, the CCU text is included!" "But it also gives the standalone stats!". It seems (and this is pure speculation) that they intended the entire package to be bought together initially; the separate stats are just in case you wanted a porta-brain you could plug into anything. That said, we can't exactly be giving away combat drones by the truckload just because your brain's already in a jar.

The rational answer, to me, would be to think like a corp. Okay, you don't need a new brainjar. That's nice. Put it on a shelf in your closet or something - it's part of the package we're selling, take it or leave it. You won't have to pay for the transplant surgery (as an eyeball figure, I'd knock 20% off), but we're not going to have a warehouse full of brainjars collecting dust.

I'm not entirely sure why people are caught up with RAW vs RAI on something that, by definition, has to break the rules to happen at all, though.