SR4 Street magic says:



while SR4 Core-book says:


Does this mean (and according to the high drain of Phys.mask.) that this spell can virtually everything and has no specific target or should i take the term "subject" more serious?

I guess so. Whatever you touch can be changed, apparently.

I usually limit the size of something to be masked to Force+6, if it were to have a body stat. I approximate for larger things, or use a straight calculation for vehicles. Thus, a Force 4 Physical Mask can conceal an average car.

Actually no it can't... you need min force 5 for the car. (object resistance).

The spell is cast on the target touched... the car/truck/etc.. In order to attach/affect a non-living target w/ the spell you need to beat it's object resistance. After you cast it though, you only need sustain it (don't need ot stay in contact with it).


Yeah, the vehicular mask is just a more limited version of physical mask as is quickly shown by it's target limitation and much lower drain code. So you're looking at min 3 drain on the 'unlimited' version of the spell per casting. The vehicular version would still need 5 hits... but with the 1point drain code it's much easier to cast until it 'takes'.

I'm not sure the spell has to break the OR:

• The object is not manipulated thus needs not resist.
• Spells that have to beat OR say so in their description.

Casting it at a high force with lots of hits is preferable though because you have to have enough hits to fool the objects (cameras) that may perceive the masked vehicle. This is where the OR comes into play.

You have to beat the OR of observing sensors, not the Or of the object being made invisible. This has been clarified several times. This is because otherwise, casting phys mask on yourself at any force would be a free pass with cameras.

Vehicle Mask is just a Restricted Target variant of Physical Mask - lower drain.

Which still makes it a Force 5 spell to be useful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Sensors are OR 3.

On drones they are only if you trust stuff one of the developers wrote on dumpshock. It is not RAW (yet) AFAIK, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

The dev wrote for PAGES that drone sensors are OR5. in *one* post said OR3, turned around and corrected himself, and they were OR5 again for the rest of the thread.

So no, drone sensor suites are OR5 by RAW/RAI. Now that may be too high, in which case OR3 or even 4 is a reasonable house rule. But in matters of RAW, I don't like it when people put forward house rules as RAW. (I'd rather see RAW understood as RAW so that the Devs will errata/fix it when necessary, rather than have to know 5 different rules sets for 5 different playgroups).


In any case, I thought that was the difference between physical mask and trid phantasm... trid phantasm is just cast on a point in space. While physical mask needed to be cast on a target and affect both it and the viewers. I can see it going either way, it's just the spell has a target of "touch" (and obviously as an illusion it also targets it's viewers as well). I never said or even inferred casting it successfully on the object meant that would bypass viewers OR.

That was prior to the revised SR4A.

By RAW, Sensors are OR3, see SR4A, p. 183.

Rotbart... then why the hell in the last few PAGES of the thread did Synner write that no, they are OR5. The entire thread was devoted to SR4a and it's changes btw... that was not 'prior' to SR4a.

You cannot pick and choose... either a drone is OR5 including ALL it's subsystems or it is OR3. Illusions have no special clause which allows them to magically change OR. And Synners comments were specific... any sensor suite would be treated as OR5. All drones by definition are equipped with sensor suites.


Again, I repeat myself, I'm not a big fan of it but am neutral... just RAW/RAI is what it is. I'd rather see the devs acknowledge it as a problem and fix it than watch people house rule it different ways everywhere and all claim their way is RAW as you're doing now. On the bad side, the OR is kinda high... on the good side... it's not a bad thing that technology and magic are natural enemies, and I don't see issues w/ mages having a hard time dealing w/ drones.

Does the illusion fool the drone (OR5) or the done's sensors(OR3)? If it is the sensors it goes against normal magical theory where you cannot target part of a whole.

Sorry if making myself not clear enough: SR4A was released as PDF, discussed and revised, then released again as PDF and in print.
The claims you make are concerning the former release, not the latter. The latter has a specific entry for Sensors at OR 3.

In fact, that entry was specifically added after me pointing out during said discussion, that such an entry would really ease the question what force you need to fool a camera.

Read p. 183.

But hey, it's your game and you are free to believe and play whatever you want.

And where would that theory be? It's not like the drone paid it with essence...

True, but can you fool the drone's sensors alone or do you have to fool the drone as a whole (OR5+ not 6+ what the earlier release said)?
Ruling the former to me is like saying after a called shot "no the opponent may not roll his full BOD because I shot him in the eye which is a lot squishier than other parts of the body."

Clothing (even MilSpec armor) does not impede targeting via astral perception, area spells cannot exclude targets in the area.

[Munchkinism]I'm just thinking about a restricted indirect area combat spell without elemental effect to destroy drone sensors.
The sensors cannot dodge because they are immobile the drone cannot dodge because it isn't a target and you need negligible damage since the sensors have no own armor and are rather small.

Scratch that and use one restricted to copper or silica (for fiberoptic cables) those are OR2 at best.[/Munchkinism]

Honestly, I don't quite see the connection of either the Called Shot nor the Astral Sight comparison to the matter at hand.

Well, of course, you can call shots on vehicle components...

Casting illusions vs. the drone's sensors is equivalent to shooting someone in the eye.

Or, say, Powerbolt-ing a drone in its sensors (OR3 is easier to beat than OR5!)

Just like shooting the High Intensity Floodlight on the Tank... it is targetable all by itself if you so choose, and it will not get the Tank's Armor to resist the damage; saying that you cannot do that is utterly ludicrous...

But this will again lead to a big tussel over Object Resistance and spell targeting that has been beat like the proverbial dead horse...

Anyways...

Keep the Faith

yes, you can shoot it, but you can't cast spells at it (other than indirect spells, which work like shooting attacks). you cannot powerbolt the wheels on a car.

If this is a case of the option to shoot a part of the target to generate a certain effect this is possible, since this requires the arbitration of the GM anyways. If it is a case of calling a shot to increase damage the tank would get the armor dice, just like a metahuman wearing an armor vest(compared to a chameleon suit).

You mean like shooting a cars tires, which have less armor than the car? Or a drones tires? Or like shooting the drones Sensors?

Magic != Bullets.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Can you provide some rules to back this up? It is my understanding that combat spells work using almost exactly the same rules as ranged combat (especially in the case of Indirect).