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Critias
post Feb 22 2010, 09:49 PM
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QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Feb 22 2010, 04:46 PM) *
Do you know all the crap you can throw into a cyberlimb? I have a mage with two cyberhands and he has the following:
  • commlink
  • Radar Sensor
  • Olfactory booster
  • Orientation system
  • Biomonitor
  • Auto-injector with 6 extra doses (for meds like Trauma Patch, Savior nanites, cram, etc)

Since you're talking about commlinks, and said "have" instead of "had," I'm assuming you're talking SR4. I wasn't, and I thought I was pretty clear about that.
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Mongoose
post Feb 22 2010, 09:56 PM
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QUOTE (D2F @ Feb 22 2010, 10:26 PM) *
It would make more sense to grab used wired reflexes 2 in that case. Beats the hell out of +3A/S. Unless you are trying to tell me the player won't have the nescessary 3BP for his gear...


Don't think of it as a stat boost; think if it as a really cheap SKILL boost. +3 agility = +3 dice to almost any combat attack, plus a lot of other skills. +3 strenght is +3 running and some other stuff. That's really nice.
Some folks (say, anybody who fights in HtH, or works as a sniper, or just has to run down other low lifes / evade the cops) would want that over an extra 2 IPs.
Plus, being able to bench press a motorcyle does more for you "street cred" (and intimidation rolls) than being a twitchy guy who needs to get in a dozen gunfights to earn a rep.
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Caadium
post Feb 22 2010, 10:03 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 22 2010, 01:38 PM) *
I'm surprised at all the mad love for cybereyes.

Personally I used them all the time when I first started playing (Fully tricked out they cost like, what, 2 BP?) but then I noticed you can get the exact same benefits from some contacts for about 1/10th the price and no essence cost. Sure, with 4A they're a little less useful since you can only put three things in them, but still, after a smartlink, vision enhancement, and ultrasound, the other things are just icing. And if you really need you can use goggles for tons of different enhancements when you go into mission mode (And they have the added bonus of helping cover your face).

So really the only reason I could see for wanting cybereyes is for mages because they can't use the vision enhancements to cast spells otherwise.


As I said, SR4 and 4A made things like contacts and glasses an acceptable alternative. However, my SR play goes back before SR4 when things like goggles were actually less beneficial. That being said, if my character has the money and the essence to spare (for whatver reason), there is something to be said for having them hardwired and not something that can be found/taken away as easily. In fact, I think I just came up with a new effective use of the Magic Fingers spell (take glasses and/or contacts if you can detect them off of someone).
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Whipstitch
post Feb 22 2010, 10:12 PM
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As far as the Reaction vs. Agility thing goes, you have to keep in mind that Agility is basically the default stat for anything that requires coordination. Palming, Infiltration, shooting, punching, lockpicking, balance and more is all Agility. Heck, if you want to be a truly capable with a wide variety of weapons you're likely better off hard-capping Agility rather than trying to cram in high levels of both Close Combat and Firearms into your build. Defaulting to 10 agility can make you into quite the generalist.
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D2F
post Feb 22 2010, 10:26 PM
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QUOTE (Mongoose @ Feb 22 2010, 10:56 PM) *
Don't think of it as a stat boost; think if it as a really cheap SKILL boost. +3 agility = +3 dice to almost any combat attack, plus a lot of other skills. +3 strenght is +3 running and some other stuff. That's really nice.
Some folks (say, anybody who fights in HtH, or works as a sniper, or just has to run down other low lifes / evade the cops) would want that over an extra 2 IPs.
Plus, being able to bench press a motorcyle does more for you "street cred" (and intimidation rolls) than being a twitchy guy who needs to get in a dozen gunfights to earn a rep.


I will take +2 combat ACTIONS over +3 skill any day of the week. Plus, shooting first has its perks as well.
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Dakka Dakka
post Feb 22 2010, 10:29 PM
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And going full defense (with a higher dice pool) and shooting the opponents afterwards isn't bad either.
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Umidori
post Feb 22 2010, 10:33 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Feb 22 2010, 03:48 AM) *
Any commlink with a mapsoft will do just fine, no need for an Orientation System.
Arguably, no.

QUOTE (SR4A @ P. 330)
Mapsoft programs feature detailed information on a particular area, from streets to business/residential listings to topographical, census, GPS, and environmental data. An interactive interface allows you to quickly determine the best routes/directions, locate the nearest spot of your choice, or create your own customized maps. The mapsoft automatically updates itself with the latest data and will retrieve correlating online data (GridGuide traffic reports, restaurant menus, etc.) as necessary.
Mapsofts are just digital maps of areas that periodically download the latest official versions from the Matrix. You can take the time to "create a custom map" through the "interactive interface", but from the sounds of it I would interpret that to mean that you can add points of data or information that otherwise would not be on a general purpose, every day usage map. You also still need to take the time to read and understand the map. Compare that to the Orientation System.

QUOTE (Augmentation @ P. 36)
An orientation system uses an internal GPS and miniaturized gyroscope (for those areas blocking GPS signals) to keep track of the character’s location and motion. This implant is usually used in conjunction with mapsofts (see p. 321, SR4) to allow the character to easily navigate through the ever-changing urban jungles. The orientation system also comes with integrated editing sotware that can be used to create and update maps. Even when no maps are available for a given area, the orientation system adds a +2 dice pool modifier to Navigation Tests. An orientation system requires an image link, head-up display, or some other optical display either implanted or connected via the character’s PAN to properly display information.
My reading of this is that the orientation system is a much more in-depth system. It's more than just a digital map, it's a full position tracking suite that displays in your HUD. It contains a gryoscopic compass (handy when you can't access GPS) and specifically works to keep you oriented in mapless areas (like secret corp research facilities) by projecting pertinent data like distance and direction traveled directly into your field of view. On top of that, its integrated mapping software is designed for usage in unmapped areas, as opposed to mapsofts which are merely customizable pre-existing maps. And if nothing else, the maps made via orientation systems are in 3D (as opposed to the simple 2D mapsoft versions) because your orientation system can also detect your vertical distance traveled via gygroscopic forces.

Now, combine your orientation system with a radar sensor and you can suddenly make 3D maps and floorplans. So you've snuck into an Aztechnology research center via (what else?) a sewer, and after crawling through some vents you find yourself in a broom closet. Your rating 4 radar sensor can see through the walls and door (eatting up, say, 8 barrier penetration) and you can now see unimpeded for 100m, or until the next wall. You are able to see the entire hallway beyond the broom closet, everyone and everything in that hallway (even Invisible or camouflaged) and you can also see through the walls on the opposite site of the hallway (eatting up another 8 barrier penetration) and can now see the entirety of the rooms behind those walls and everything in them as well until you reach your third wall (which your remaining 2 barrier penetration can't beat). You can also now map the entire scene into a flawless floorplan via your orientation system, as well as patch the data to your teammates.

Plus, you can sense in all three dimensions. You can see through the ceiling to the level above, as well as through the floor to the level below. You can make floorplans of these areas as well, noting potential threats at the same time, without ever actually stepping foot on either of these level. The only possible inhibitions are really thick walls and radar jamming.

~Umidori
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Shinobi Killfist
post Feb 23 2010, 05:30 AM
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my fav is leonization treatment. Seriously who doesn't want to live forever, or at least add 60 yeas back onto your life.

worst. adrenal pump, so much cool wrapped in a pile of fail.
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Neraph
post Feb 23 2010, 07:49 AM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Feb 22 2010, 01:27 PM) *
Hmm well that must be a rules change/clarification from SR4a then, it lacks the "stacks with reaction enhancers" line, while MBW in augmentation has it.

I'm beginning to think that the original text was just poorly worded and that the SR4a wording is intended for all IP boosters. Thus Reaction Enhancers become useful, if not mandatory for Street Samurai. Reaction is probably the best attribute to boost for any kind of character.

I've always interpreted this as taking the higher of the Reaction bonuses and IP for Initiative purposes, but using the full Reaction enhancement from both Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes/MbW/Synaptic Boosters for all other Reaction- based rolls - such as: Dodge Tests, Vehicle Tests, Full Defense, and others.
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FriendoftheDork
post Feb 23 2010, 01:33 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Feb 22 2010, 08:32 PM) *
AGI is at least on par with REA.


Agi is great for many. REA is great for everyone. You can easily make a mage with 1 agility who will kill easily and still be able to defend himself from attack. Not so without reaction. You need much less reaction to be able to dodge a hit than you'd need body to soak damage. And the latter can be more easily boosted with armor.

QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 22 2010, 10:38 PM) *
I'm surprised at all the mad love for cybereyes.

Personally I used them all the time when I first started playing (Fully tricked out they cost like, what, 2 BP?) but then I noticed you can get the exact same benefits from some contacts for about 1/10th the price and no essence cost. Sure, with 4A they're a little less useful since you can only put three things in them, but still, after a smartlink, vision enhancement, and ultrasound, the other things are just icing. And if you really need you can use goggles for tons of different enhancements when you go into mission mode (And they have the added bonus of helping cover your face).

So really the only reason I could see for wanting cybereyes is for mages because they can't use the vision enhancements to cast spells otherwise.


One advantage of cybereyes is that they are less likely of being taken from you, no hassle about cleaning lenses or maybe loosing them, and extremely high capacity.
Glasses etc. are good for mages, but for cybercharacters taking cybereyes is a no-brainer unless you're really short on cash.
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Dakka Dakka
post Feb 23 2010, 01:53 PM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Feb 23 2010, 02:33 PM) *
Glasses etc. are good for mages, but for cybercharacters taking cybereyes is a no-brainer unless you're really short on cash.
Quite the contrary IMHO. Visual Aids have very limited use for mages, since only purely optical enhancements allow spellcasting. IR and Lowlight vision for example are right out.
Mundanes however suffer no penalties for using visual aids instead of cyberware. While cybereyes are cheap and less removable, sometimes you may still want to use visual aids, especially when the character has one or more inherent enhancements.
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Aerospider
post Feb 23 2010, 03:16 PM
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QUOTE (Mongoose @ Feb 22 2010, 08:54 PM) *
Dumbest item(s) by far are the cyberarm dodads that replace your hands. Not that they are bad items, per se, but why are they NOT available as non-cyber items baffles me. Are we to believe you can by a welding laser that repalces your cyber-hand, but not one you can pick up and use with a normal human hand?

This is a thoroughly disappointing item for me too.

I had to create a sammy for a relative newbie and thought he'd get a real kick out of being able to change his arm to suit the circumstances. On the face of it it really excited me too and I thought it was going to be great. So, he has his standard arm, a bike tool kit arm, a medikit arm and a grapple arm (I thought I'd leave the uber-cool drone hand as something to aim for).

So what difference does it make?

Medikit - "I pull my medikit out of my bag and try to patch him up."
Medikit arm module - "I pull my medikit arm out of my bag, swap it with my current module and then try to patch him up."

In both mechanical and thematic terms, it's less convenient, not more.

You might think it's better for being open to remote piloting, but normal medikits are too (and in my game other toolkits have the same functionality - why not?).
You might think that it helps by not having to carry the manual equivalent, but most of them (such as the medikit) doesn't include a hand for doing non-medical stuff and if you want to use another attachment you have to carry that anyway.

As Mongoose asserted, there is no reason any of the cyberam modules cannot be replicated for handheld use (and realistically this version should have hit the shelves long before the cyberlimb version) so even the grapple hand and the drone hand are extravagantly pointless.

Essentially, a cyberarm module is a tool that constantly occupies one of your hands between uses. Instead of carrying a bag of equipment on a run you're now carrying a bag of arms that need to be switched every time you need something different, which is no good at all when every second counts.

I keep racking my brains for a way to make modules beneficial and thought maybe eliminating wound modifiers would make sense (especially useful for med-tests on yourself!) but although the task is being done by presumably undamaged machinary it still requires the character's skill and concentration which should both be hampered by injury.

So what then, bonus dice? Reduced threshold?

If anyone can see some functionality that I've overlooked, or can think of a good house rule to make these things more use than hindrance I'd be really glad to hear it!
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Ascalaphus
post Feb 23 2010, 03:28 PM
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Merely switching hands is a bit iffy, yeah. But switching arms has it's uses. One with armored one with razor coverage for grappling and one smoother one for cuddling your girlfriend..
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Tias
post Feb 23 2010, 03:34 PM
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Best Item: Cyber-arm

Made my first character last year, and I had to make an ork street samurai with a cyberarm featuring gyromount, spurs and a silenced hold-out. It's not necessarily the best bit of gear, but it illustrates the "inhumanity of man" paradox that is such a cool theme in Shadowrun, and in a very graphic way too. So it's a favorite for fluffy, not tactical, reasons.

Worst: Nanocybernetics

Horribly broken and hard to control, the only thing I would get is blue goo - In my chronicles I handwave how most of it works because the rules are hell. Again, definitely not the 'worst' augmentation, but the one I like least from a fluff perspective.
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kjones
post Feb 23 2010, 03:37 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Feb 23 2010, 10:28 AM) *
Merely switching hands is a bit iffy, yeah. But switching arms has it's uses. One with armored one with razor coverage for grappling and one smoother one for cuddling your girlfriend..


See, for example, Manuel in The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlein. He had about seven prosthetic arms. One was almost indistinguishable from a real arm and was for social occaisons, one had some sort of electronic tools instead of fingers for computer work... I don't remember all of them but he swapped them out pretty frequently.
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Aerospider
post Feb 23 2010, 03:49 PM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Feb 23 2010, 01:33 PM) *
Agi is great for many. REA is great for everyone. You can easily make a mage with 1 agility who will kill easily and still be able to defend himself from attack. Not so without reaction. You need much less reaction to be able to dodge a hit than you'd need body to soak damage. And the latter can be more easily boosted with armor.

And for those who need hands to do things? If they can dodge well but can't take down much of a threat on their action phase then in combat terms what you have are long-lasting wastes-of-space.

Good point that dodging is easier than damage soaking (in terms of attributes) but the widespread applications of agility cannot be ignored. Don't forget the infiltration skill is linked to agility and with that you can bypass a lot of nasty encounters altogether.
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Neraph
post Feb 23 2010, 03:54 PM
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I have long said this:

Infiltration > Dodge > Armor.
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Caadium
post Feb 23 2010, 04:27 PM
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QUOTE (Aerospider @ Feb 23 2010, 07:16 AM) *
This is a thoroughly disappointing item for me too.

I had to create a sammy for a relative newbie and thought he'd get a real kick out of being able to change his arm to suit the circumstances. On the face of it it really excited me too and I thought it was going to be great. So, he has his standard arm, a bike tool kit arm, a medikit arm and a grapple arm (I thought I'd leave the uber-cool drone hand as something to aim for).

So what difference does it make?

Medikit - "I pull my medikit out of my bag and try to patch him up."
Medikit arm module - "I pull my medikit arm out of my bag, swap it with my current module and then try to patch him up."

In both mechanical and thematic terms, it's less convenient, not more.

You might think it's better for being open to remote piloting, but normal medikits are too (and in my game other toolkits have the same functionality - why not?).
You might think that it helps by not having to carry the manual equivalent, but most of them (such as the medikit) doesn't include a hand for doing non-medical stuff and if you want to use another attachment you have to carry that anyway.

As Mongoose asserted, there is no reason any of the cyberam modules cannot be replicated for handheld use (and realistically this version should have hit the shelves long before the cyberlimb version) so even the grapple hand and the drone hand are extravagantly pointless.

Essentially, a cyberarm module is a tool that constantly occupies one of your hands between uses. Instead of carrying a bag of equipment on a run you're now carrying a bag of arms that need to be switched every time you need something different, which is no good at all when every second counts.

I keep racking my brains for a way to make modules beneficial and thought maybe eliminating wound modifiers would make sense (especially useful for med-tests on yourself!) but although the task is being done by presumably undamaged machinary it still requires the character's skill and concentration which should both be hampered by injury.

So what then, bonus dice? Reduced threshold?

If anyone can see some functionality that I've overlooked, or can think of a good house rule to make these things more use than hindrance I'd be really glad to hear it!


The Raptor legs are now one of these modules, if you have legs you can swap out for better running/kicking, or instead go for the more normal look, etc. Also remember, the stuff published in the books is what the corps make. They make this to either turn a profit, or to make their employees more useful in a cost effective manner. That being said, Shadowrunner usefulness is something that they rarely consider when designing cyber.

Personally, I think the best use of modular cyber is beyond the pre-made modules. For example, I made a street doc with 1 cyber hand (modular setup). He has 1 hand with hand razors, snake fingers, and is basically built as a surgery hand. Another hand has gyroscopic stabilizers. Etc.

In fact, I was VERY excited to see modular cyber finally make its way into SR. As far back as SR2 I had a GM that allowed me to come up with modular eyes (bear in mind, eyese didn't have the capacity they do now). The premise was that the ocular casing and nerve connections were standard, but the core lens unit could be swapped out.
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Saint Sithney
post Feb 23 2010, 04:35 PM
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Depending on how bad your situation is, cybereyes can be pretty easy to take away from someone, and when they are taken away, that leaves you pretty well screwed.

Basically, if someone can take your contacts, they can take your eyes too.

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Caadium
post Feb 23 2010, 04:45 PM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Feb 23 2010, 08:35 AM) *
Depending on how bad your situation is, cybereyes can be pretty easy to take away from someone, and when they are taken away, that leaves you pretty well screwed.

Basically, if someone can take your contacts, they can take your eyes too.


How do you figure? I've seen people (myself included) whose contacts were knocked loose fairly simply. Yet, I'm fortunate enough to have never seen anyone's eye popped out. Contacts are much easier to lose or get thrown off then an eye is.
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Ascalaphus
post Feb 23 2010, 05:08 PM
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...and anyone capable of taking your cybereyes is also capable of taking your meateyes...
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Critias
post Feb 23 2010, 06:10 PM
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As a general rule of thumb, I'd say any time someone's in a position to start removing cyber parts -- be they eyes or otherwise -- you're screwed enough it doesn't matter which bits are meat and which are metal, by that point.
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Saint Sithney
post Feb 23 2010, 07:14 PM
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QUOTE (Caadium @ Feb 23 2010, 08:45 AM) *
How do you figure? I've seen people (myself included) whose contacts were knocked loose fairly simply. Yet, I'm fortunate enough to have never seen anyone's eye popped out. Contacts are much easier to lose or get thrown off then an eye is.


You ever roll to see if your contacts stay in during a run?
Besides, if that were really a problem, then the contacts would be made full eye contacts like clubbers or makeup people use.

Also, yeah, I do think it's more likely for a captured runner to have their cybereyes electronicly disabled along with the rest of their cyberware than it is that their captor will slice up their eyeballs just for giggles. Once someone gets physical access to your PAN, they can switch you off, brother.
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Caadium
post Feb 23 2010, 07:27 PM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Feb 23 2010, 11:14 AM) *
You ever roll to see if your contacts stay in during a run?
Besides, if that were really a problem, then the contacts would be made full eye contacts like clubbers or makeup people use.

Also, yeah, I do think it's more likely for a captured runner to have their cybereyes electronicly disabled along with the rest of their cyberware than it is that their captor will slice up their eyeballs just for giggles. Once someone gets physical access to your PAN, they can switch you off, brother.


Once you are captured all bets are off. And no, I don't make players randomly roll to see if they lose a contact. However, what I was talking about it something akin to either a Magic Fingers spell, or a Disarm attempt (using a thwack upside the head), or something along those lines. Mid combat your contacts are more vulnerable. From a captured/helpless position you are hosed no matter what. Similarly, it doesn't matter if they are contacts or eyes if your PAN is hacked; but then you are helpless from a digital perspective.
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Karoline
post Feb 23 2010, 07:37 PM
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QUOTE (Caadium @ Feb 23 2010, 02:27 PM) *
Similarly, it doesn't matter if they are contacts or eyes if your PAN is hacked; but then you are helpless from a digital perspective.


Yes, but if your contacts are hacked, you can still see.
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