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Glyph
post Mar 2 2010, 03:22 AM
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I find that the overall amount of points influences my choices more than the build system (although I play to a build system's strengths). I will get what I need in order to make my concept work, and then flesh it out with extras. If I had 500 build points, I would probably have a character with some quirks (for example, if he is a knife-throwing adept, maybe I will give him the artisan/woodcarving skill). If I had 600 Karma, the same character would probably have a more bare-bones assortment of skills.

With that said, Karmagen does encourage taking a rating: 1 skill or so. First, because it is cheaper, and second, because usually you will have a small amount of points left over, so you might as well get a low-rated skill or two. Not sure if this necessarily means the character is more "well-rounded", though, since those low-rated skills could just as easily be "get it at rating: 1 so I don't default" choices.
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Karoline
post Mar 2 2010, 03:41 AM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 1 2010, 09:57 PM) *
44/24 =1.8
750/400=1.875

It is only very slightly better than the actual BP:karma ratio. That is for skill.

110/40=2.75, in addition to the fixed exchange rate of 2:1 for race (if you charge for race). In both attribute and race, the BP:karma ratio is worse than the actual 1.875.

Karmagen does not disallow being good at something, but it does discourage you from being really good at something. To me being good is necessary to get you to the point where you can make use of what you are really good at. But if you got nothing you really good at, simply just being good doesn't cut it.


First off, race is only charged as equal to BP cost, not double, so you have a 1:1 ratio there.

Skills of 2 or less and specs have a 1:1 ratio.

Also, you can only get a single skill at 6. Skills of 4 have a 16 BP/22 Karma cost, which is much better than the 1.875 observed ratio.

Stats of 5 or less have a 2:1 ratio, and lower have better.

So really, the only place you see a worse than 1.875:1 ratio is high end stats, equipment, contacts, and qualities. Qualities doesn't really matter because that will generally be nilled out anyway, and if you're talking net negative, then you are talking an advantage for karmagen. Basically unless the book enforces a 2:1 ratio, then it'll usually be better than that in favor of karma.

I'm guessing you have alot of BP characters laying around. Try converting some of them to karmagen and see what you come up with as far as how much karma it cost you. Check before and after taking knowledge skills into account. I'm guessing you'll generally come up with a slightly higher karma cost, especially for non-human characters, but that will depend on if you focus on maxing stats and skill when building your BP characters, or try and balance them out more.
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Karoline
post Mar 2 2010, 03:47 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Mar 1 2010, 10:22 PM) *
With that said, Karmagen does encourage taking a rating: 1 skill or so. First, because it is cheaper, and second, because usually you will have a small amount of points left over, so you might as well get a low-rated skill or two. Not sure if this necessarily means the character is more "well-rounded", though, since those low-rated skills could just as easily be "get it at rating: 1 so I don't default" choices.


That isn't where the 'well rounded' comes from. Where it comes from is, in BP, you have two options. You can spend 4 BP to get a skill from 5 to 6, or you can spend 4 BP to get a skill from 1 to 2. In karmagen however, you can spend 12 karma to get from 5 to 6, or you can spend 4 karma to get from 1 to 2. This means that you can get a larger total skill rating by getting a good number of 2-4 grade skills. BP however has the same total skill rating by getting a ton of rating 1 skills, or a 6 and a few 4s.

Also keep in mind that if you spend the 4BP to increase a skill from 5 to 6, you save yourself 12 karma once gameplay starts, but if you raise a skill from 1 to 2, you only save 4 karma. Basically the system is entirely designed to get you to either not get something, or max it out. Anything inbetween is going to cost you in the long run. With karma though, you're always using karma, so there is no 'it'll cost you down the road'.
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toturi
post Mar 2 2010, 04:33 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 2 2010, 11:41 AM) *
First off, race is only charged as equal to BP cost, not double, so you have a 1:1 ratio there.

Skills of 2 or less and specs have a 1:1 ratio.

Also, you can only get a single skill at 6. Skills of 4 have a 16 BP/22 Karma cost, which is much better than the 1.875 observed ratio.

Stats of 5 or less have a 2:1 ratio, and lower have better.

So really, the only place you see a worse than 1.875:1 ratio is high end stats, equipment, contacts, and qualities. Qualities doesn't really matter because that will generally be nilled out anyway, and if you're talking net negative, then you are talking an advantage for karmagen. Basically unless the book enforces a 2:1 ratio, then it'll usually be better than that in favor of karma.

I'm guessing you have alot of BP characters laying around. Try converting some of them to karmagen and see what you come up with as far as how much karma it cost you. Check before and after taking knowledge skills into account. I'm guessing you'll generally come up with a slightly higher karma cost, especially for non-human characters, but that will depend on if you focus on maxing stats and skill when building your BP characters, or try and balance them out more.

Ah, so race is at 1:1?

Elements in favor of karmagen: Race, skills and attributes below 5.
Elements in favor of BP: Skills and attributes above 5, equipment, contacts and qualities.

I am not disputing that there are characters that cost more in karmagen than in BP or vice versa. I am saying that if you want to have a higher certainty of success in a chosen field, then BP is better. Viability of a character lies both in having a good foundation as well as being able to reach higher than other people.

QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 2 2010, 11:47 AM) *
That isn't where the 'well rounded' comes from. Where it comes from is, in BP, you have two options. You can spend 4 BP to get a skill from 5 to 6, or you can spend 4 BP to get a skill from 1 to 2. In karmagen however, you can spend 12 karma to get from 5 to 6, or you can spend 4 karma to get from 1 to 2. This means that you can get a larger total skill rating by getting a good number of 2-4 grade skills. BP however has the same total skill rating by getting a ton of rating 1 skills, or a 6 and a few 4s.

Also keep in mind that if you spend the 4BP to increase a skill from 5 to 6, you save yourself 12 karma once gameplay starts, but if you raise a skill from 1 to 2, you only save 4 karma. Basically the system is entirely designed to get you to either not get something, or max it out. Anything inbetween is going to cost you in the long run. With karma though, you're always using karma, so there is no 'it'll cost you down the road'.

Yet in BP, due to defaulting, you will buy skill at 1 because if you do not, it becomes spend 10BP in attribute and have nothing to show for it due to defaulting or spend 4BPs in a skill or 10BPs in a skillgroup. You have to get something, you cannot not get it.
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Saint Sithney
post Mar 2 2010, 09:21 AM
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Well, when talking about getting skills above 5, I think you might be inappropriately pluralizing...
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Karoline
post Mar 2 2010, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 2 2010, 04:21 AM) *
Well, when talking about getting skills above 5, I think you might be inappropriately pluralizing...


Especially because a skill of 6 is still slightly in favor of karmagen. Skills of 4 are also in favor of karmagen. Lower skills are even more in favor of karmagen. Really what you have is 6+ attributes, equipment, contacts, and net cost on qualities are in favor of BP. Everything else is in favor of Karmagen. And even those things which are in favor of BP are mostly not very much so, with the exception of particularly high attributes.

So, unless you want to make a troll with maxed strength and body, you're likely to end up better off with karmagen.
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Karoline
post Mar 2 2010, 03:45 PM
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Just for fun, I grabbed one of my own characters I'd made with BP and converted it to Karma.

[ Spoiler ]


So, as you can see, despite the fact that she has several 5s in her stats, a skill at 6, and alot of skills at 4, and even paying for the knowledge skills, she comes out almost 100 karma cheaper. I think you're going to see this for any human. Like I keep saying, only in extreme examples and cases of maxing out a troll do you really run into BP being better.
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Kraegor
post Mar 2 2010, 08:47 PM
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Please remember..

According to the RAW in RC...

Step 1: Choose Your Metatype or Other Character Race Option
First you must choose metatype or other alternative character
concept (i.e. shapeshifter, AI, sasquatch, etc.); there is no
associated cost for metatype or race in Karma-based character
generation, but the BP cost should be noted as it is important
for Step 3, below. The Metatype Attribute Table (see p. 70 and
p.73, SR4) or the relevant table in the section describing the new
character races in this book provide your character’s starting and
maximum attribute ratings.


-- There is no cost in the Karma system chargen for a metatype character.

There is *only* a cost if you are converting FROM the BP system to a Karma system (such as bringing in another character from another game, or decide to switch in the middle, etc).

If you read it carefully it states:

For Karma-based character conversion, the costs for metatype
(or other character options, such as shapeshifters, free spirits,
AIs, etc.) and qualities are equal to twice the standard Build Point
cost (BP x 2) in Karma. When buying gear, each point of Karma
can be traded for 2,500 nuyen.


Anything else is just a house rule.

Also if you look closely at the errata it states:

• Th e Karma Awards Table has been adjusted slightly as follows:
• Th e Karma cost of increasing Attributes has been raised from
(New Rating) x3 to (New Rating) x5

-- You will notice its karma awards, not karma generation.

And as of the last developer chat from Shadowrun Runner's Companion:

Tycho: Will the Karma Generation Rules will get an errata, because under current rules this "no BP for race" cause a little trouble.
Peter Taylor: The Karma Gen rules take into account the fact that raising Attributes with Karma means that it is prohibitively costly for
metahumans to raise certain Attributes to the levels possible with the BP system. The lack of racial cost does not affect
the fact that racial minimums and maximums are set and that only half your points may be spent on Attributes. That
said it is likely that a couple of other aspects of Karma Gen will be errata'd.

Rotbart_van_Dainig: What aspects of karma gen will be errata'd? Is is really intended that meta-variants, AIs, Free Spirits and sapient critters are free, too?
Peter Taylor: No the advanced character options will be given a "rarity" cost.

AdamJury Says:
December 30th, 2008 at 22:54:35
Omenowl: Unless Peter has changed his mind since the last time we talked, the point costs in Runner’s Companion are all correct.


-- So basically I am taking this as gold. Until I hear otherwise from the developers, anything else to me is just a house rule.

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Karoline
post Mar 2 2010, 09:07 PM
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Okay, so the karmagen system is even more favorable than the BP system then if there is 0 cost for race. I was simply going off what I've been told several times appears in the german RC which was produced later and would thus have anything they'd intended to errata in it.

I'm also not sure what it says in SR4A, but was under the impression that it also called for the 1x cost in karmagen.
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Kraegor
post Mar 2 2010, 09:53 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 2 2010, 10:07 PM) *
Okay, so the karmagen system is even more favorable than the BP system then if there is 0 cost for race. I was simply going off what I've been told several times appears in the german RC which was produced later and would thus have anything they'd intended to errata in it.

I'm also not sure what it says in SR4A, but was under the impression that it also called for the 1x cost in karmagen.



If you, or anyone else can link me to the german RC errata, I have 6 people at work here who speak perfect German and can translate, and I can then post the results 100% for the dumpshock forums.

But also, please be aware, that to my knowledge, the German rulebook is put out by a different company. Its either FanPro or WizKids. Its not Catalyst that does it for the other language.

So be aware, when you are reading errata in other languages, it is not coming from Catalyst possibly, but another maker/publisher that had recieved the rights to publish it in another language/country.
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Karoline
post Mar 2 2010, 10:14 PM
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QUOTE (Kraegor @ Mar 2 2010, 04:53 PM) *
If you, or anyone else can link me to the german RC errata, I have 6 people at work here who speak perfect German and can translate, and I can then post the results 100% for the dumpshock forums.

But also, please be aware, that to my knowledge, the German rulebook is put out by a different company. Its either FanPro or WizKids. Its not Catalyst that does it for the other language.

So be aware, when you are reading errata in other languages, it is not coming from Catalyst possibly, but another maker/publisher that had recieved the rights to publish it in another language/country.


Given that the people who have told me that that is what it says in the German RC book live in Germany, and speak German as their native language, I'm willing to believe that they are able to comprehend a book written in German. And it isn't an errata, it is what is actually printed in the book itself.

I still can't pin down what it says in SR4A, as no one has come out and said "Yes, that is what SR4A says" or "No, that isn't what SR4A says" when I say "I think it says 1x race cost in SR4A".
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Kraegor
post Mar 2 2010, 10:52 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 2 2010, 11:14 PM) *
Given that the people who have told me that that is what it says in the German RC book live in Germany, and speak German as their native language, I'm willing to believe that they are able to comprehend a book written in German. And it isn't an errata, it is what is actually printed in the book itself.

I still can't pin down what it says in SR4A, as no one has come out and said "Yes, that is what SR4A says" or "No, that isn't what SR4A says" when I say "I think it says 1x race cost in SR4A".



I have just searched the SR4A PDF for the words "Karma", at no place in this edition does it state Karma generation costs, or the cost of buying race cost.

Now I could be mistaken, but the PDF search came up with like 72 instances of the word karma, and none were related to races. So unless this has been errata'd, is just hearsay unless I missed it.
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Karoline
post Mar 2 2010, 10:55 PM
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QUOTE (Kraegor @ Mar 2 2010, 05:52 PM) *
I have just searched the SR4A PDF for the words "Karma", at no place in this edition does it state Karma generation costs, or the cost of buying race cost.

Now I could be mistaken, but the PDF search came up with like 72 instances of the word karma, and none were related to races. So unless this has been errata'd, is just hearsay unless I missed it.


I'm roughly 99% positive that SR4A has karmagen rules, because it changed them from the RC rules. How about actually reading through the Karmagen rules instead of doing a search for the keyword karma and then scanning to see if the word race appears next to it? It has to mention something about the karma cost for race, be that free, 1:1, or 2:1 or whatever. It has to say something.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Mar 2 2010, 10:56 PM
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They have not given us the errata the English version yet. While the German version is more recent, I think even post SR4A there is no proof to say they are going to use those rules in the English version. As I understand it there have been small differences before and there probably will be differences in the future.
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Karoline
post Mar 2 2010, 10:58 PM
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Well, personally it is a rule I rather like, the 1:1 karma cost for race. It makes it cheaper to compensate for the increased price of raising stats, but it doesn't make it so that people pick high cost races just to get a bunch of free stats. After all, if you're not charging for race, there isn't much reason to not play either an elf or troll.
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Brol_The_Mighty
post Mar 2 2010, 11:02 PM
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So, I've got SR4A IN MY HANDS and there are NO rules for Karmagen in it. Not in the index, not under Creating a Shadowrunner. I'll even double check, again....

Edit: Just finished going through it again, and there's no mention of even the Karmagen system, let alone changes to the rules.
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Karoline
post Mar 2 2010, 11:07 PM
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QUOTE (Brol_The_Mighty @ Mar 2 2010, 06:02 PM) *
So, I've got SR4A IN MY HANDS and there are NO rules for Karmagen in it. Not in the index, not under Creating a Shadowrunner. I'll even double check, again....


Really? Weird, everything I'd heard seemed to indicate that they'd made changes to the karmagen system in SR4A. And I figured that meant more than just changing the karma advancement from attributes being 3x to 5x.
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X-Kalibur
post Mar 2 2010, 11:10 PM
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I think you're remember the SR4 -> SR4A changes that obviously impacted karmagen.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Mar 2 2010, 11:10 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 2 2010, 06:07 PM) *
Really? Weird, everything I'd heard seemed to indicate that they'd made changes to the karmagen system in SR4A. And I figured that meant more than just changing the karma advancement from attributes being 3x to 5x.


I am sure it was playtested, but it is not in the core 4A book. There have been talks of 4A errata that should be forthcoming for street magic, companion, and other books.
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toturi
post Mar 3 2010, 01:30 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 2 2010, 11:45 PM) *
Just for fun, I grabbed one of my own characters I'd made with BP and converted it to Karma.

So, as you can see, despite the fact that she has several 5s in her stats, a skill at 6, and alot of skills at 4, and even paying for the knowledge skills, she comes out almost 100 karma cheaper. I think you're going to see this for any human. Like I keep saying, only in extreme examples and cases of maxing out a troll do you really run into BP being better.

Except for the fact that BP is precisely for builds with such specialised performance, nobody denies that Karmagen is better for generalist builds.
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Karoline
post Mar 3 2010, 01:35 AM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 2 2010, 08:30 PM) *
Except for the fact that BP is precisely for builds with such specialised performance, nobody denies that Karmagen is better for generalist builds.


My character with virtually nothing but maxed out skills/stats is a generalist? My character, who is a sniper specialist, is a generalist? I should also point out that under karmagen she would be even more specialized because she would have gotten the sniper rifle specialty, as well as several others, thus karmagen would have made her more specialized and less generalized.

Like I keep saying, BP is good at making trolls with maxed out body and strength, and that is about it, otherwise Karmagen is likely to give you the same character for a smaller price.
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Glyph
post Mar 3 2010, 03:15 AM
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Even the enforcer archetype, with a Body and Strength of 9, comes out to about 749 in Karmagen*, and that is the German version (pay base racial cost in Karma points, Attributes use the x 5 multiplier). Karmagen has its limits, but you have to be maxing out more than one thing before you hit them.

*I gave him social skills for normal cost despite the Uncouth flaw, but only to keep it fair, since the BP version does that.
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toturi
post Mar 3 2010, 08:11 AM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 3 2010, 09:35 AM) *
My character with virtually nothing but maxed out skills/stats is a generalist? My character, who is a sniper specialist, is a generalist? I should also point out that under karmagen she would be even more specialized because she would have gotten the sniper rifle specialty, as well as several others, thus karmagen would have made her more specialized and less generalized.

Like I keep saying, BP is good at making trolls with maxed out body and strength, and that is about it, otherwise Karmagen is likely to give you the same character for a smaller price.

Edge, Will and Reaction aren't soft-maxed, with points allocated to Strength and Cha.

However, I would admit it seems that karmagen remains the powergame build system of choice. Interesting.
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Karoline
post Mar 3 2010, 01:18 PM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Mar 3 2010, 03:11 AM) *
Edge, Will and Reaction aren't soft-maxed, with points allocated to Strength and Cha.

However, I would admit it seems that karmagen remains the powergame build system of choice. Interesting.


Okay, there is a difference between specialist, and min/maxed munchkin. And soft maxed edge isn't needed for either of those. Only thing a soft maxed edge does is push a build slightly in favor of the BP system.
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toturi
post Mar 3 2010, 03:43 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 3 2010, 09:18 PM) *
Okay, there is a difference between specialist, and min/maxed munchkin. And soft maxed edge isn't needed for either of those. Only thing a soft maxed edge does is push a build slightly in favor of the BP system.

Yes, there is a difference, but what I mentioned is not that. A min-maxed specialist is not a munchkin. A munchkin breaks the rules, a min-maxed character stays within the rules. A soft maxed edge helps to confirm the shot.
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