New to the public but not news to the shadows. The Smiling Bandit and Orbital DK discussed the beginning stages of an orbital elevator on p. 123 of the aforementioned Runner Havens.

I take it from this little snippet that Jackpoint is a karma forum-based culture, kinda like reddit or somethingawful?

vs shadowland, which was probably more like Fark, or the original USENET.

Yeah, I liked them slow-to-boill big payoff stories (sort of like the way we seeded Winternight and System Failure all the way back in SoE and DotSW). Other references to the elevator (actually a "sky hook") can be found in one of the subplots in Emergence (look for Sternensammler).

Anyway, don't mind me. I'm just watching.

Okay, let's kick this pig!

Crime Pays
Okay, in case anyone doesn't know I wrote this chapter almost in its entirety (To the long suffering proofers/editors: all props!), so there's going to be some heavy author-commentary on this one.

Intro Fiction
I have a tendency toward cannibalization, and this is probably one of the most egregious examples. Sharp-eyed runners will note that a goodly chunk of this intro fiction was actually adapted from a scene in my short fanfiction story Countdown.

Crime 101
The main point of this opening chapter was kind of muddy, one part "what constitutes crime in the Sixth World?" and one part "wait, how does crime X work in Shadowrun, and how can I make nuyen off it?" The result is...mixed, I think. I definitely threw my own author biases and interests in there (Black Magic, I'm looking at you). The DIY sidebars by stone were actually a nice relief from trying to write in Red Anya's voice all the time - I tried to keep her perspective limited and less generalized textbookish, but I'm not sure how well I succeeded away from throwing a couple random Vory comments in there - the real trouble was making a DIY sidebar worth reading. I must have gone through a dozen different ways to burn the damn car, trying to channel the ultimate "this'll-fuck-with-the-CSI-guys" moment.

Tingling is one of those DIY that is so strange and specific, you know I had something in mind when I wrote it. Honestly, it's more the sort of service that a hurt and beat-up shadowrunner will go looking for than try to do themselves, but I think I almost made it plausible.

The various goodies in the Most Popular Controlled Substances sidebar will probably look familiar. I worked in references to Orxploitation (Skraachas in Heat) and some of my favorite drugs in Arsenal (goblin heads are these little green derms equivalent to Fomorian usquebaugh, roid patches are basically the little venom patches from Batman Beyond) and Ghost Cartels (tempo), Digital Grimoire (blood fetishes), PACKS (The Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Street Magic), and Dawn of the Artifacts/Dunkelzahn's Will (Dawn of Atlantis: Epoch of Blood).

Controlled Substances is the first of several follow-ups to Ghost Cartels in Vice in terms of "what happened after," and of course I managed to work in a reference to Chicago Grey from Feral Cities...there's a story there about one of the perspective endings for GC that didn't pan out, but I'll save it for another time.

The Paper Lotus, one of the largest and most involved DIY tricks, actually has its ultimate origin in a couple questions asked on Dumpshock years ago, and which I have been patiently waiting to include in print ever since.

Forgery is a bit thin on the ground, as are financial crime and white collar crime, but the former was covered somewhat in Unwired and the latter two are so varied it was difficult to really pin down a solid concept beyond "all bastards is bastards." The sidebar "In Nuyen We Trust" was added to flesh things out and provide an alternative to being the uberhacker. I was hoping to go into greater detail in Corp Guide, but the section never really came out like I hoped so I ended up scrapping a lot of it.

"Win by Losing" has got to be the most counterintuitive DIY example here.

"Stop and Squat" is real and works often enough that it happens frequently. Please don't do it.

I want to be absolutely clear about two things: yes, I borrowed/stole "Stand Over Men" from William Gibson's excellent novel Idoru, where it was a general description of a class of criminals that preyed on other criminals, and no, the name of their group was never actually "Stand Over Men" until some other freelancer, who shall remain nameless, apparently mistook it for a proper name. Now we all have to live with it.

"It Takes A Fixer" is a direct reference to the William Gibson short story "Burning Chrome," from the collection of the same name.

In Prostitution, I was playing up on Sticks (mostly not covered so far) backstory, which involves his mother being a prostitute for the Triads, Ares, and the Universal Brotherhood - not in that particular order. It gave me an excuse for someone to talk about the life without living the life; otherwise I'd have probably gone the Yo Puta route only with a young and sexually vulnerable Sunshine (simmer down, ye fanfic slash authors). This was before it was generally established that TurboBunny's mother was a...lady about town.

Underworld Support Structure
This section I wish was larger. I probably would have cut or diminished other sections to really flesh this out and go into greater detail, but we'd already covered a good chunk of the specific underworld supports in Arsenal, Unwired, Street Magic, and Augmentation, at least to an extant.

Okay, the FastJack subroutine was a lot of work for a one-note joke.

Wednesday Night Special is another reference to Gibson's Idoru; guns that are designed primarily for suicide (contrast Saturday Night Special, cheap guns for cheap hoods).

Overall, I think this chapter was okay, but not spectacular. The sheer amount of ideas probably gives players or GMs at least a couple ideas for runs and things to do during play, but leaves a lot of the details up to them and doesn't particularly move the metaplot or add to the background that isn't there. Tingling is probably the single most original piece of material in the whole chapter. Call it a B- for effort; I poured a lot more sweat into the next chapter.

In case the developer's perspective is of interest: Ancient History got the unenviable task of writing the try-to-cover-it-all-chapter on criminal operations, with the brief of trying at the same time to be informative (to those players/GMs less familiar with the various criminal enterprises that fuel the underworld) and provide specific street-level samples/examples (ie. springboards for GM creativity or plothooks for other stories to get caught on). I assigned this to Ancient because I knew he'd give it a certain flare and a gritty edge which I personally though was lacking in previous treatments (notably the old Underworld sb). His chosen breakdown more than aptly fulfilled that brief while also providing nods to current/ongoing plots, our staple characters, canon and genre references. For the record, I would have increased the Underworld Support Structure section significantly had we not covered a lot of ground in other books (particularly Arsenal) - and it was always my intent to single out fixers later in the book (providing one answer to the age old question just how does your fixer get their goods).

EDIT: Just for context, I wrote this whilst Synner was writing his post so I hadn't read his comments at the time.




Heh! You don't leave much for anyone else to say, do you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I thought the chapter was competent. That was my general feel for most the book in fact. It does what it says on the tin. (I don't know if that phrase is used outside of Britain, but it should be pretty understandable). The chapter says it's going to give you a break down of types of crime in the Sixth World, and that's what it does. There are plenty of nice little touches in here, though. Things like optical chips are great because they don't show up on metal detectors and dogs can't sniff them out... this is the sort of stuff that works well for bringing the Sixth World to life. Notes that kidnapping need not be about ransoming, but for example just a way for Yakuza to ensure good behaviour and other bits and pieces are good little ways to spark GM ideas.

A few things seemed curious in this chapter. First off, unless I missed it, wet-work and its little cousin beating people up for money, don't appear listed in this chapter. Those may not show up enough in modern Western society to be a big part of the crime scene, but I would think these would be a lot more prevalent in Shadowrun 2072. For a start, you have such a large population of SINless that essentially don't have much legal recourse if someone does them harm, that paying a few local gangers to beat someone who has annoyed you would seem to be quite common. Given how corrupt Lone Star officers can be (this may be temporarily different now that Ares are in charge, though I expect they'll settle down), I'd think one of the logical groups to hire to beat someone up would be local cops. They wouldn't be available for beating up someone in Bellevue, but a couple of disillusioned career-deadends in Touristville might well be up for pulling someone over and giving them a smacking for a bit of cred. Similarly the topic of 'enforcement' is conspicuous by its absence in the "Underworld Support" section.

A couple of other things that struck me as anachronistic were the gambling and prostitution sections. Dealing with gambling first, it just seems odd that this is an area of big crime. I know that the USA has a big thing about gambling in our present real-world, but in the dystopia of 2072 UCAS, I find it hard to believe that gambling is illegal in any significant way. Even if for some reason the UCAS government has an issue with it, presumably it's pretty easy to nip into extraterritorial places where it's fine. Regarding prostitution, what is its status in the USA today? The UK has fairly sensible laws about it which is that prostitution is legal, but profiting from someone else's prostitution is not. That's the general principle, anyway. The remaining UK laws about it are basically social ones, i.e. not allowed to solicit on the street, not supposed to have lots of people working out of one place. (Actually, there was a media furore about people trafficking recently so I think some rather ill-thought out bolt on laws got added to all this). Regardless, I see SR2072 being a very sex-saturated world, where its practically become a commodity. I couldn't see anything explicitly stating that prostitution was illegal in UCAS, but I got the strong impression that it is assumed to be. I find that curiously un-dystopian. And because this is a topic that can easily get misconstrued, I'm not saying it is non-dystopian for prostitution to be illegal for reasons you might think. It's because I'd thought the modern society in Shadowrun to be one in which profit is set above all things and everything - including sex - is bought and sold in the public (and taxman's) eye.

Anyway, those were my general thoughts on this chapter. It couldn't really be anything else than a list of crime descriptions and it does feel a bit like a list, but it's solid and generates ideas and I'm a sucker for little Sixth World details being worked in without having to highlight them (like a stereotypical job being working "8 till 6"). If I had any criticism to make generally on it, it would be that perhaps it felt a little clean. Crime is a raw business and perhaps the Shadowtalk could have been a little more visceral. But then I've never written a game supplement and I don't know what's asked for. I don't want this post to come across as negative. It's just that it takes two words to say "like it" and more words to say "I wasn't sure about X because...", so the overall impression can be skewed. Decent intro to the book and light enough on setting specifics that I can actually hand this opening chapter to my players so they can get a better feel for the setting. (Because they're currently pursuing someone called "Gianelli", you'll be able to guess why I can't do that with some other chapters. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

K.

Yay, discussion!

I admittedly did not dwell on violent crime as much as I probably could have, mainly because I consider violence more of a means to an end than an end into itself - the lack of wetwork was, however, an oversight.


Gambling is an issue that's never going to go away, and even when it is completely legitimate there will be rules and stipulations people will want to avoid. People choose illegal gambling now for convenience, for better odds, for open lines of credit, to bet on fights et al. that they aren't normally allowed to hold, etc. I think perhaps you're right that I didn't cover that aspect of gambling to the necessary degree.


The US remains a very weird, very prudish attitude toward prostitution (any prostitution), and is generally less open about sexual materials than Europe in general - hence our massive, massive obsession with porn. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Part of the difficulty in writing this section was trying to avoid crimes peculiar to only one locale in SR, and instead covering general classes or categories of crime as they were around the world - which is where things get wiggy, because as you point out, a brothel may be legal in the Czech Republic and illegal in the CAS, and the Japanese Imperial State might have a "maid hotel" which is the exact equivalent but operates in a legal grey area or loophole...I probably could have worked up the different jurisdiction issue a bit more, but there is probably some of my own bias showing through here. I see sex-for-pay as...deplorable. Understandable, in some cases, and certainly there are porn actors and actresses that make a decent living at it, but I find it unfortunate that there are men and women who either have no other means to support themselves than selling their bodies, or who find it the preferable alternative.

And yeah, anybody that sells children for sex gets my Irish up.


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


No, that's a very valid criticism. There's generally no single correct line when it comes to how "raw" a chapter is - it depends in a large part on the person reading it; the writer just has to pick a level and try to decide when to cross the line. You probably recall my unprinted Neo-Tokyo fragment was too blue for some, not as terribly explicit as feared by others. Of course, I try to avoid going so far over the line that the text basically degenerates into a parody - I can't think of a really good example right now, but there are plenty of fanfics out there which go into loving and exacting detail about certain impossible genitals and acts.

I will post a more detailed write up shortly however first I will thank AH and Synner for the director/actors commentary. I will also take a moment to say that I personally am a bit fatigued on Sticks in the material as for someone who's a street level bounty hunter in Seattle as of SR4 he's amazingly well connected and keeps popping up everywhere almost to the point of ridiculousness.

The DIY:Dayjob is a great idea and could actually turn the negative quality into a positive one, especially when you start using your spare sins as employees as mentioned.

A fair gripe; Sticks is one of my favorite characters and I use him a lot, though generally only for his areas of expertise (paracritters, Ares, bug spirits, sometimes the Triads, CHicago). Still...that does get to be a lot.

I only have a few moments before I have to go, so this will be a short reply. Like LurkerOutThere, it is good to get these discussions with the author. Just a couple of quick notes...



I guess I'd just remark that you can show it as deplorable, then. Poor people forced to turn to prostitution, people grooming others to be prostitutes... My point was that legality does not make something less tragic. Isn't it more dystopian to show a society where someone pretty but poor was told by their job counselor that they should become a prostitute? Where the boss at the bar you work at can legitimately hire someone else in your place because you aren't willing to go futher when required ("it was in the contract"). It risks a tangent to start talking about prostitution here. I'll just say that it seems very odd that in the Shadowrun setting it's illegal. This isn't the USA and they've had another sixty years of sex being used to sell everything to everyone. Seems odd that the sale fo sex itself wouldn't be mundane by that point. "Prudish" is the word you used. It's just not a word I associate with 2072 UCAS.




I actually edited my post, obviously after you'd already hit "quote", just to change the word from "graphic" to "visceral". I guess I just meant that you could have used the opportunity for people to post slightly more personal comments about their experience with crime. I didn't mean so much graphic detail as "My brother got involved with this and got caught. He'll be out in eight years, we hope." sort of stuff. Bad example, but like I say - in hurry.

Thanks for the reply,

K.

I generally liked the chapter. It had a lot of seeds in it that I can spin into adventures. Some nice SR-specific crime, too. That's important, because it gives the chapter value when compared to other "crime books" for different game systems (I'm looking at Mage:the Ascension with Destiny's Price in this case.)

It's not as visceral as Destiny's Price, which was nasty here and there. Makes Vice more accessible though. It could have been a bit rougher without an increased sexual angle though.

I found the Black Magic section a bit thin. Since Unwired had gone into various forms of Matrix Crime, this might have been a nice place to put in a bit more of the uses of magic by the criminal underworld. While reading Seattle I wondered how the Yakuza could survive while being traditionalist and disdaining mages.
A section with street prices for magical services would have been a nice touch, perhaps. Maybe an indication of how magic is viewed and used by the underworld; how common, how feared.

Maybe a bit more transhumanist creepiness could have been snuck in too; radical (cosmetic) alterations as "gang colors", services for prostitution, black medicine and so forth.

Despite these nitpicks, it was a solid chapter.

I can see where small-stakes gambling is "legal" entertainment. But high-stakes gambling can compromise people, including valuable corporate assets. It has a destabilizing influence that's bad for business (makes employees steal to cover their debts, opens them up to blackmail, etc.)

I have to say that this book was kinda far down on my 'priority list', but reading this thread has moved it up a couple of slots. Sounds good.

Same here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

On the issue of prostitution and gambling (and to a lesser extent drug/substance abuse), the thing to keep in mind that Vice fit into a bigger picture and its intended to cover crime form a national perspective (and then a UCAsian/first world angle). National legal systems are slow and reluctant to adapt, being generally conservative and tradition-bound, and in the Sixth World there are alternative legal systems which are much more flexible/modern/different...

We intentionally left a number of additional considerations on those and other subjects for Corporate Guide - there's a big chapter in it called Corporate Life which I believe everyone will appreciate (if it sees it to print). Many players tend to forget (and canon has been guilty of ignoring this too) that megacorporations need not adhere internally to national laws (though some will for convenience or necessity). What is illegal and criminal in the UCAS and Germany need not necessarily be either in Ares and Saeder-Krupp (and to their respective corporate citizens). For instance, the corporate culture and the legal system within Horizon is likely (hint, hint) much more flexible with regards to light/recreational drug use than UCAS law. MCT and Renraku have "institutional" prostitution services (employee recreation providers). Evo has different standards for coming of age than most corps and that affects everything that relates to minors/age-related crimes.

As for (really) violent crime... in hindsight, it could have gotten a little more limelight, even though stuff like wetwork tends to be the focus of specialized independents (covered in a later chapter).

One final note, that applies to most of the books I worked on for SR4 and addresses one of the points knasser made above (and I believe in his review elsewhere). For a lot of us long-time fans some of the material in Vice will cover familiar ground. We have the Underworld sb and/or the MobWar tracked campaign on our shelves, heck, some lucky few have Lone Star. The problem associated with that is we inevitably look at books like Vice (and Corporate Guide) as "updates" and approach them with very different expectations (and preconceptions) than other readers. However, "other readers" were an important consideration for me as line developer, since for a significant portion of the current crop of Shadowrun players this is the first time they're having any significant contact with the underworld aspect of the setting (Ghost Cartels not withstanding)... so, for better or worse, a considerable amount of the (limited) wordcount in these books goes to retreading old(er) ground to introduce newcomers to the lay of the land (as it were). It's a balancing act everytime, and sometimes we did it better than others - I'm relatively satisfied with Vice in this regard though.

My main goal when facing a chapter like Crime 101 was both introduce new players to the basics of an aspect of the setting but also make the treatment (if not all the contents) more engaging, diverse, and original than previous takes on the subject matter. (Another reason I assigned Bobby to do this chapter is that not only does he know his canon inside and out, he often has a distinctive, some would say peculiar, perspective on a lot of basic day-to-day stuff that not only adds color but brings it to life).

Thanks for that, I think. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

As one of those old timers, (yes I have the lone star book! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )I thought it did a good job of covering the bases and providing new material. Knowing it is a new addition and that 4E has yet to cover criminal organizations, I expected it to try and balance the needs of new commers and old hacks. I did like the fixer section especially, as it was one of those areas never explored in the other books. Crime 101 is sort of a DIY or for the GM a list of run ideas/potential plot hooks to get the players involved in.

The organized crime section was pretty much a rehash, though I found the NPC descriptions potentially useful.

Okay, I like where we're going with the discussion so far, but just to make sure we keep moving forward, everyone please read the first section of the transnational syndicates (the Mafia) by next Monday.

My copy is in the mail, but should arrive tomorrow. So will do, sir!

Okay, I know this is a tangent but I want to know more about the Mariah Mercurial tribute concert at Underword 93!

Tribute for what? Lifetime achievement? Some heroic or selfless act? Did she die and everyone's doing a concert like they did for Freddie Mercury?

It was a nice little reference to older material and I'm latching onto it, dammit!

I see the deadline has come, and ohgodwalloftext.





I thought it was an excellent piece of flavor, and a good idea for runners to get access to a target they may have trouble getting to otherwise.



once again, it's a great seed idea for people with other objectives. remember, if we just wanted to make money, we'd just steal cars. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Is this canon? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

It's not not-canon, at least as of the time I stopped writing.