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Sengir
post Apr 10 2010, 05:40 PM
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QUOTE (Harbin @ Apr 10 2010, 02:36 PM) *
But berserk in the bear description says that they would still retain enough of their mental faculty to go after you first.

Even without the "bear berserk", the roleplaying effects will be extreme. Read the descriptions of other combat drugs like Cram or Kamikaze, and then imagine those effects times 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And of course for an effective distraction, other people should see a person starting to run berserk out of the blue. A silenced shot from a dark corner and nobody will know what happened.
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Patrick the Gnom...
post Apr 10 2010, 06:23 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 10 2010, 08:40 AM) *
Ahhh... But if you use an Aerosol Grenade mixed with DMSO and K-10, and then you drop it into a group of ordinary people, you would then have a pretty good instant distrtaction...

And a note... with K-10, you do not go Beserk until and unless you actually take any damage... so for the Troll/Ork Tanks out there, they may never even suffer the effects of the Beserk state, though I would not count on it happening ALL of the time... eventually Karma does catch up to you...

Keep the Faith


Holy crap you're right. How did I miss that? All right, so does the Kali user get a Berserk resist test in the same way a Bear magician does? K-10 says they go Berserk automatically upon being wounded so I think it would act like Bear rage as if the Berserker got 0 hits on his Will+Cha test, so it would last either for 3 rounds or until the target was incapacitated, and then the character would make the Edge test to avoid falling Berserk permanently. Doesn't this mean that the Kali user might have to make multiple Edge tests during the duration of the drug if he gets wounded, falls out of it, then gets wounded again? I know with the way Shadowru combat usually works this is unlikely when a character has 4 IP, but is it true?
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Megu
post Apr 10 2010, 07:52 PM
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A dumb question: AFB, but doesn't the Edge test only require one hit? So if you have four Edge, you could just reliably buy a hit and be golden?

Also, is there any way that a permanently Berserk character could be cured of that state medically? Neurosurgery, implants, magic? What sounds feasible, if one was to make something up (perhaps as a character goal)?

And an interesting story note. We're all talking about this permanent Berserk state as something to be avoided. Something I introduced in my game at one point was a group with a very different perspective. It was a mostly Bengali Hindu gillette gang (of the Kalikula Shaktiist sect), your average grrl-power razorgirl outfit with a bit of a Temple of Doom flavor. Basically, they treat their combat drug highs as a quasi-religious experience; the intellectual self, the illusory experience of being individual, is suppressed by animalistic fury and union with Kali. So to be permanently stuck in that state, to them, is like being able to reach their own psychotic nirvana with a needle. it's something they actually seek out, although they don't have the funding to get K-10 regularly. The only reason the cops haven't come down much harder on them is they're in Rapid City in Sioux country, and the police are hesitant to risk suppressing traditional mystic practice (as they perceive the Anglos as having done to them) in the name of dealing with the occasional violently strung out miscreant.

I partly did this because the local girl gang (our setting is Minneapolis) is portrayed much more positively and I wanted a counterpoint to that, so I added these girls in when the team visited Rapid. Was also a bit inspired by a friend who grew up there telling me that there was a surprisingly big community of Bangladeshis in town (as well as Japanese, so it became a Japanacorp town), and what I can remember from an undergraduate course on South Asian religion.
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Patrick the Gnom...
post Apr 10 2010, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE (Megu @ Apr 10 2010, 02:52 PM) *
A dumb question: AFB, but doesn't the Edge test only require one hit? So if you have four Edge, you could just reliably buy a hit and be golden?

Also, is there any way that a permanently Berserk character could be cured of that state medically? Neurosurgery, implants, magic? What sounds feasible, if one was to make something up (perhaps as a character goal)?

And an interesting story note. We're all talking about this permanent Berserk state as something to be avoided. Something I introduced in my game at one point was a group with a very different perspective. It was a mostly Bengali Hindu gillette gang (of the Kalikula Shaktiist sect), your average grrl-power razorgirl outfit with a bit of a Temple of Doom flavor. Basically, they treat their combat drug highs as a quasi-religious experience; the intellectual self, the illusory experience of being individual, is suppressed by animalistic fury and union with Kali. So to be permanently stuck in that state, to them, is like being able to reach their own psychotic nirvana with a needle. it's something they actually seek out, although they don't have the funding to get K-10 regularly. The only reason the cops haven't come down much harder on them is they're in Rapid City in Sioux country, and the police are hesitant to risk suppressing traditional mystic practice (as they perceive the Anglos as having done to them) in the name of dealing with the occasional violently strung out miscreant.

I partly did this because the local girl gang (our setting is Minneapolis) is portrayed much more positively and I wanted a counterpoint to that, so I added these girls in when the team visited Rapid. Was also a bit inspired by a friend who grew up there telling me that there was a surprisingly big community of Bangladeshis in town (as well as Japanese, so it became a Japanacorp town), and what I can remember from an undergraduate course on South Asian religion.


Considering the implications of failure on the Edge test, I doubt most game masters would let you just buy the hit with 4 Edge dice. I doubt there'd be a way to reverse the Berserk of it became permanent, it seems like a neurological effect that damages brain tissue, although considering the tech level of 2077 it's not impossible with brain tissue growth. As for seeking out a permanent Berserk state, maybe from an in character perspective of a zealously religious character it'd be a good thing, but permanent Berserk seems like the kind of thing that gets your character sheet taken away by the GM.
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Megu
post Apr 11 2010, 03:00 AM
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QUOTE (Patrick the Gnome @ Apr 10 2010, 03:09 PM) *
Considering the implications of failure on the Edge test, I doubt most game masters would let you just buy the hit with 4 Edge dice. I doubt there'd be a way to reverse the Berserk of it became permanent, it seems like a neurological effect that damages brain tissue, although considering the tech level of 2077 it's not impossible with brain tissue growth. As for seeking out a permanent Berserk state, maybe from an in character perspective of a zealously religious character it'd be a good thing, but permanent Berserk seems like the kind of thing that gets your character sheet taken away by the GM.


Oh, absolutely it would be. Aside from the fact that there's not much actual roleplaying that can be done at that point, I mean, if that was the character's big goal then their chapter of the story is essentially done.

I see your point regarding GM fiat on the Edge test. You wouldn't want players just to stop worrying about it. Does seem possible rules-wise, though.

And as far as curing it goes, I guess I'm just pondering the possibility of having a character's goal being medically retrieving a loved one from that Berserk state. Maybe they're in a padded cell, or for hard mode, maybe they're still running around in the Barrens breaking the heads of passersby.
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Ascalaphus
post Apr 11 2010, 03:48 AM
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QUOTE (Megu @ Apr 10 2010, 08:52 PM) *
A dumb question: AFB, but doesn't the Edge test only require one hit? So if you have four Edge, you could just reliably buy a hit and be golden?


IIRC, buying hits is only allowed in non-stressful situations.
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Megu
post Apr 11 2010, 04:29 AM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Apr 10 2010, 09:48 PM) *
IIRC, buying hits is only allowed in non-stressful situations.


Ah, that's the piece I was missing. Thanks.
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Ancient History
post Apr 11 2010, 04:33 AM
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Cellular repair would fix the permanent berserk state. Provided you can get the person in the tank.
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Saint Sithney
post Apr 11 2010, 05:02 AM
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Seems strange that you don't go berserk unless you take damage and you don't stay berserk unless you go berserk in the first place, but you can't just take that Thorazine hit preemptively and cancel the Berserk state before it happens, thereby avoiding the perma-berserk character death situation.
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Ancient History
post Apr 11 2010, 05:04 AM
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I think planning ahead and full knowledge of your options should be rewarded.
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Emy
post Apr 11 2010, 05:10 AM
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QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 10 2010, 10:33 PM) *
Cellular repair would fix the permanent berserk state. Provided you can get the person in the tank.


DMSO/Slab? DMSO/Slab.
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Patrick the Gnom...
post Apr 11 2010, 05:15 AM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Apr 11 2010, 12:02 AM) *
Seems strange that you don't go berserk unless you take damage and you don't stay berserk unless you go berserk in the first place, but you can't just take that Thorazine hit preemptively and cancel the Berserk state before it happens, thereby avoiding the perma-berserk character death situation.


Forgive me if I've misunderstood your grammar but Dopadrine can in fact be used preemptively to stop a character from going Berserk as per its description, meaning that if you speedball K-10 and Dope together you'll never go berserk during K-10's duration and thus won't run the risk of going berserk permanently.
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Saint Sithney
post Apr 11 2010, 05:56 AM
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QUOTE (Megu @ Apr 10 2010, 12:52 PM) *
A dumb question: AFB, but doesn't the Edge test only require one hit? So if you have four Edge, you could just reliably buy a hit and be golden?


I always assumed that it was a [1] threshold test, meaning that you need two hits to actually succeed, which makes it stupid difficult to keep from going all freakout forever.

QUOTE (Patrick the Gnome @ Apr 10 2010, 10:15 PM) *
Forgive me if I've misunderstood your grammar but Dopadrine can in fact be used preemptively to stop a character from going Berserk as per its description, meaning that if you speedball K-10 and Dope together you'll never go berserk during K-10's duration and thus won't run the risk of going berserk permanently.


Ah, yes Dopadrine. So ruling is, you only stay berserk if you go berserk, and you can't go berserk if you're on the Dope. So that -1 to all actions is all you need to trade for your massive body boosts.

Next problem: 18S from massive nerve damage. Cyber hands and feet for 4 extra boxes on your phys track all for a cost of 1 essence std?
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Patrick the Gnom...
post Apr 11 2010, 06:05 AM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Apr 11 2010, 12:56 AM) *
I always assumed that it was a [1] threshold test, meaning that you need two hits to actually succeed, which makes it stupid difficult to keep from going all freakout forever.



Ah, yes Dopadrine. So ruling is, you only stay berserk if you go berserk, and you can't go berserk if you're on the Dope. So that -1 to all actions is all you need to trade for your massive body boosts.

Next problem: 18S from massive nerve damage. Cyber hands and feet for 4 extra boxes on your phys track all for a cost of 1 essence std?


I'm pretty sure you only get the extra boxes for each limb that you make cyber, not appendage. Even so, you'd still pass out from the stun. There's not really a good, consistent way of dealing with 18S without massive damage tracks and Regeneration.
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Saint Sithney
post Apr 11 2010, 07:58 AM
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QUOTE (Patrick the Gnome @ Apr 10 2010, 11:05 PM) *
I'm pretty sure you only get the extra boxes for each limb that you make cyber, not appendage. Even so, you'd still pass out from the stun. There's not really a good, consistent way of dealing with 18S without massive damage tracks and Regeneration.



The FAQ (houserules, I know) says cyber hands and feet are still cyberlimbs and therefore provide the same benefits. Stim patches will keep you awake (and counter some of the negative modifiers) until they wear off, but that's even more unresisted stun to contend with if you can't make it back to the van in time for heals. It's not rare for characters to pack an auto-injector clued to their biomonitor so that it stims them whenever they lose consciousness.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Apr 11 2010, 08:58 AM
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In SR4, Stim Patches just provide ain resistance – and contrary to SR3, there is no rule keeping you conscious with a full monitor through pain resistance.
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dirkformica
post Apr 11 2010, 11:59 AM
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So Pain Editor (ignore stun) and sufficient physical damage boxes means you can ignore the drug? You'll get massive penalties due to the stun and physical damage, but you might live.

Quick question: When does the damage kick in, exactly? Just wondering if a Possession Mage could snag someone, hit them up with K-10, run amok, then leave them twisting in the wind until they wipe out on the effect.
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 11 2010, 12:04 PM
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It's one of those gray areas. Onset times only seem to apply to Toxins for some reason, not Drugs. Though the Immediate onset time means that the Toxin kicks in at the end of a Combat Turn which, honestly, is what should be used for most "instant" type drugs. Despite a lot of Drugs not being quite that fast acting; Hurlg, for instance.
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Mongoose
post Apr 11 2010, 05:38 PM
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I think K-10 was intended (in terms of PC use at least) to be one of those "go out in a blaze of glory" type things. I had a SR2 samuria do something similar with regular Kamikazee; I knew using 3 hits (I think it was, under the old rules) would burn out all my implants (which was a LOT, like 5.9 essence and 4.8 BI, including effectively unreplacible wired 3). I still used Kamikazee on at least one or two occasions, because hey, if you are gonna die / cost your team more than your life is worth, what does it matter if your cyber is gonna burn out? I know on one occasion, I used itto kill a fairly powerful spirit in HtH while taking some heavy gunfire. I could se K10 helping with hijinks like that.

As Ancient History says, if you live go permanently berserk and happen to live through the experience (that stun damage is likely to kill yah, or at least leave you immobile) then maybe your team will scrape up the pieces and get you fixed. The GM might even make that easy to do, if they are the type to reward "heroic sacrifice". (And if that's what it was, rather than "getting your ass out of drek you never shoulda been in if you'd done any planning / research".)
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Banaticus
post Apr 11 2010, 07:09 PM
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QUOTE (dirkformica @ Apr 11 2010, 04:59 AM) *
So Pain Editor (ignore stun) and sufficient physical damage boxes means you can ignore the drug? You'll get massive penalties due to the stun and physical damage, but you might live.

The problem is that whenever one track is completely filled, you're knocked unconscious. So when that Stun overflows to Physical, you go down for a while and someone has to carry you.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Apr 11 2010, 07:27 PM
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Pain Editor prevents that.
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Faraday
post Apr 11 2010, 07:36 PM
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QUOTE (Banaticus @ Apr 11 2010, 12:09 PM) *
The problem is that whenever one track is completely filled, you're knocked unconscious. So when that Stun overflows to Physical, you go down for a while and someone has to carry you.

Unless you have a pain editor.

EDIT: Bah, beaten to the punch.
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Dakka Dakka
post Apr 11 2010, 09:20 PM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Apr 11 2010, 07:56 AM) *
I always assumed that it was a [1] threshold test, meaning that you need two hits to actually succeed, which makes it stupid difficult to keep from going all freakout forever.
To succeed at a threshold 1 test, you must meet or exceed the threshold, i.e. you need to roll at least one hit. With only one hit you don't get any net hits but you don't benefit from them anyways on the test we are talking about. (SR4A p. 63)
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Megu
post Apr 11 2010, 10:35 PM
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QUOTE (Patrick the Gnome @ Apr 11 2010, 01:05 AM) *
I'm pretty sure you only get the extra boxes for each limb that you make cyber, not appendage. Even so, you'd still pass out from the stun. There's not really a good, consistent way of dealing with 18S without massive damage tracks and Regeneration.


Regeneration. Now there's a thought. Play a shifter or a vampire with some kind of stim injector setup and you're good to go.
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Patrick the Gnom...
post Apr 11 2010, 10:47 PM
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QUOTE (Megu @ Apr 11 2010, 05:35 PM) *
Regeneration. Now there's a thought. Play a shifter or a vampire with some kind of stim injector setup and you're good to go.


A shifter would work but a vampire is immune to K-10's effects. Maybe a Dzoo-No-Qua, I don't think they have immunity to toxins.
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