Hey I want to continue the off topic discussion in "best shadowrun work" thread here.

First of all I must admit I made my own house rules for ammo inspired by.. Synner was it?

Anyway here is how I do it, I'd like other opinions (and the errata itself, can't really remember it).

Flechette: Old stats: +2 DV, +2 AP. Although not quite as powerful as EX-EX, this ammo is easily available and legal with license.
My stats: +2 DV, +5 AP (but max AP=armor. Leather jacket vs flechette or buckshot=fail). I believe the errata was very similar.

EX-EX: Old stats: +2 DV -2 AP. As listed, probably the best ammo there is as it can do good damage AND penetrate armor with ease.
My stats: +2 DV +1 AP. Slightly nerfed, making it worse than APDS at armor penetration but better at pure damage.

EX: As above, except DV=+1.

S&S: Old stats DV= 6S, regardless,AP= -half Armor.
My stats: DV=4S and all Tasers have -2 DV to compensate.

These are what I can think of ATM.

errata found at shadworun4.com

Yeah I don't need the whole errata, I just don't remember the EX-EX rules from it so agh ok here they are.



Surprisingly, EX-EX with +2 Damage +1 AP is actually better than the one in the errata (+1DV -1 AP). I mean, more damaging. The errata version on the other hand is slightly better at piercing armor causing P damage.

Doesn't this just make APDS awesome and other ammo terrible? Let's face it, if you shoot an unarmoured target they become un-alive whatever ammo you pack, so you keep around ammo for shooting at the tough guys. You've just make flecette completely unusable for example - why would anyone ever buy that.

If that is a weird conspiracy to bilk your players for ammo money, I'm not sure the sammies need the punch to the face, but YMMV.

I never understood all the hubabaloo people have about the ammo choices in the game. Just like in real life, some types of ammo are just plain better than others. And when talking about such microscopic price differences (compared to the thousands and tens of thousands of nuyen a runner typically has), why wouldn't the best ammo types be the norm?

The only one I can almost see as being an issue is Stick-n-Shock. And the solution for that one is simple: Just add S(e) to the damage value of the weapon of choice, rather than a set DV, and keep the -half armor penetration value. Smaller guns using smaller types of ammo won't carry as much of a charge. Bigger ones will. Pretty easily solution without having to completely kick all types of taser-like weapons in the nads. And hell, combined with my previous comment, that just makes it even less of an "omg, awesome" ammo type, and instead turns it into a specialty type. Sure, it's a specialty type that trumps gel rounds in a major way, but that, too, fits in to my previous comment.

For stick and shock in my campaign i've found that to balance it out so it didnt become the ammo of choice its now (-2) to the base damage of the weapon and (-half) to Impact Armor. This works out well and still allows the shorter range taser to be effective.

I found a simpler solution: The 6S damage is not effected by the net hits. Problemsolved. The weapon skill test is only to measure, if the player hits the target. If the target is hit, it suffers 6S damage against which it resists normally with half impact armor. It's not that hard to get 6 hits on a resistance test.

I thought the problem with SnS was that each shot counts at full DV by RAW. So with SnS in a burst fire weapon the target resists 6Se damage 3 times from one successfull attack in a narow burst.

Please tell me Im wrong about that. If I'm wrong I might alow SnS in the next game I run.

[edit] another issue with SnS is that I think it breaks physics.
A SnS dart would have to be extremely power dence to produce an effective shock. Which means a high voltage maintained over a significant fraction of a second right? Seems to me this would require at least several highly efficient and powerful capacitors packed into the space not much larger than a normal slug from any particular gun.

So, a SnS dart probably has close to the same dencity and almost the same mass as a normal bullet.

Not only that but the range of the weapon is not any less than the normal range of the weapon fireing SnS so it would still need a fairly high propellant charge.

So, a SnS dart fired from say, a colt manhunter, would probably end up having something close to the kinetic energy of the slug fired by that same gun.

Which means if you get hit by a SnS dart and it penetrates your armor, the DV 6Se is the least of your worries because you now have a SnS dart in your lung.

SnS is a lame idea. The whole concept is flawed and requires too much handwaivium.
for ballance the DV of a SnS burst ought to be the same as for other ammo: +1DV / additional round.

for realism;
Ranges for weapons fireing SnS ammo out to be cut by at least 50% and extreme range eliminated.

I don't care how magical energy dencities of have become by 2070, smaller guns like holdouts, machine pistols, and ARs probably shouldn't be able to fire SnS darts. at least lower the DV to the base of the weapon as suggested above. But, I'd limit the use to heavy pistols and shotguns.
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I've seen people say that, but I haven't seen jack squat in the rules that supports it. It's just another type of ammo, albeit with a set damage value rather than one dependent on the gun itself.

That would be correct, if you used my house rule. It is somewhat unclear in the actual RAW (see below)

Fair point. The idea comes from the fact that the damage is applied AFTER the bullet scored a hit. This is reason, logic and partly fluff, so you are correct that technically the RAW treat SnS as just another type of ammo.

It is plausible to assume, however, that (since SnS has its own damage value), SnS hits are dealt with independently of the weapon skill test. Plausible does not mean RAW, though.

What do yopu mean? AP gets worse the more armor the target has? Vs leather jacket +2 vs armored clothing +4 and anything with an armor value of 5 or greater +5? This just sounds weird.

This makes especially dedicated electric weapons less viable. What about melee stun weapons? Are they nerfed as well?

@D2F Why do you propose a counterintuitive rule that makes it impossible to take down Joe Average with a single taser dart and nigh impossible to achieve it in one Action Phase?

Because it is more consistent with reality, logic and physics. Some people like for their rules to make sense, even the abstract ones, relative to their abstraction level. I also said it was a house rule.

Hmm. I'd always thought that all taser weapons (shock glove, S&S, tasers) *already* did their set damage without any increase from net hits. I guess I just subconsciously house-ruled that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) It seemed eminently intuitive to me.

OneTrikPony, did you see the recent web buzz about the Taser shotgun shells (http://www.taser.com/products/law/Pages/TASERXREP.aspx)? I feel like technology should be better in 2070.

Ya I've seen that. It kinda proves someof my points.
that projectile is 18 grams. (~270 grains. my 40cal fires 160-180 grain slugs, typical 5.56 is 60-65 grains, 22lr is 36 grains)
it has it's own battery and generates NMI for 20 seconds.
it has a maximum effective range of 100 yards.

Obviously you can make a taser slug for a shot gun.

But can you put enough capacitors in a slug the size of a 40cal to produce NMI for an effective period of time with a mass that will not penetrate the target and a propellent charge that yields similar ranges to a normal slug? Probably not. In a 5.56 or smaller I have to say definitly no.

It would be more realistic to just make magical stunbal bullets.

I reiterate; guns that fire slugs smaller than a heavy pistol probably shouldn't be able to use taser rouns.

Considering that you can have microdrones and powerful sensors built into things the size of a pinhead, all independently powered... and don't forget nanites, too... well, yeah, I don't see why you'd have any trouble making S&S rounds. In all honesty they should probably be significantly more powerful if they wanted to be realistic to the setting.

Keep in mind that the law of conservation of energy still applies in shadowrun, despite magic =) Espcially for non-magical processes.

but there really arent any powerfull sensors in a "pin head" in SR as far as I know. There are no rules for the fuel capacity and operational duration for microdrones either. (I genrally rule that ambulation or flight times for a body 0 drone is measured in minutes.)

as I recall the smallest sensor capacity is about the size of a coin which will hold one sensor and ignores it's power supply.

someone who graduated highschool could probably figure out the theoretical maximum wattage a volume and mass equivelant to a 180 grain slug could hold assumeing nano-capacitors and room temparature super conductive materials. I might be surprized but I don't think so.

[edit] Dr. Funk; a mutual freind told me you might like to play Eclipse Phase PBP. Is that so?[/edit]

Not really.

allready been mentioned and analyzed.
but thanks it's cooler in motion.

I agree that the whole Stun damage bit is not very realistic but tasers should be able to take down most people. Maybe we could do away with the stun damage altogether but make the incapacitation roll more difficult to resist. Something like the (6+net hits)S(e) are soaked as per RAW but remaining damage is not applied to the condition monitor but instead increases the threshold for the WIL+CHA(3) test. If this is too hard make the "damage" the threshold. Incapacitation lasts for 30 seconds. Better get to the target quickly.

K. doing some envelope calculations. I'm not really qualified so I'll show my work and someone will need to check my numbers.

I read somewhere that the thoretical limit (the most that physics of this univers can accomplish) of energy dencity for nano-capacitors or superconductive loops is 25 kilojouls per kilogram. I'm trying to find the source I can't remember if it was on the internet or in one of the dead trees stacked around my house.

so: Energy 25j/gram

.40cal slug (fmj) = 180 grains.

so: weight 12 grams

Thoretical energy maximum of superconductive loops or nano-capacitor taser dart in .40cal = 300 joules

Typical police stun dart produces 50,000 volts at .02 amps for 10-20 seconds. (lets put this in SR terms and say it's effective in 3 seconds--1 round)

So: NMI requires 3000 watts

Well obviously there's something wrong here because I just calculated that the shotgun dart is physicly imposible.

Would someone who is smart please help?

[edit] OK my source for thoretical energy density seems to have been Orion's Arm wich is interesting but pretty much useless. There's another reference to capacitors here and I'm still trying to make sence of it. [/edit]

.40 cal bullet != 12 gauge shotgun shell.

In fact, a 12 gauge shell is .729 cal (not to mention longer--caliber is only a measure of bore diameter).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_gauge#Conversion_guide

37.80g of material gives us 945 joules. Also, watts are "joules per second," so not even the same unit. At 3,000 watts the shock need only last 0.315 seconds.

Correct. But it doesn't matter which you use even an atmospheric sensor can be put in that coin. Only the directional microphone does not fit.
Not quite a rule but a guideline at least:

Obviously I havn't been clear in my point of contention. I've said (twice I think) that I doubt you'd be able to put an effective taser dart in a package smaller than a heavy pistol slug.

I'm useing my own pistol as an example of the bottom of the range of heavy pistols .40cal. and trying to analyze what kind of energy dencity you could fit in that space and or weight.

Additionally I contend that if you managed to put an effective taser dart in a package that small it wouldn't matter because you'd still be fireing a progectile of around 100 grains at a velocity of around 900 Fps. So if you're shooting them with something the mass and velocity of a bullet what's the point of calling it a taser round??? how is that "less than lethal"? Do you apply the 6Stun damage before or after you apply the 4physical damage to the face?

If the argument that light pistols can shoot taser darts because the tech makes the rounds really light I'd counter that I don't think you can put that much energy storage in a round that light and I'm working on an analysis of that.

If the argument is that taser rounds are slow and use a very light propellant charge I'd argue that the ranges should be very very short.

I'm just a bit anoyed that SnS is the "magic bullet" it seems it should have some serious physical limitations that are not coverd in the rules.