This is also why "remote hacking" is so ideal in RAW. Hacking on the fly is never* a good option.

*Unless you're hacking a trivial system to begin with.

Or unless you cannot hack remotely...
Sometimes "Hacking on the Fly" is your only option...

Keep the Faith

While (possibly) true, it is by and large such a terrible option that players will do almost anything to avoid it. Normal hacking is roughly 3:2 odds that the hacker succeeds in infiltrating a target that has software equally good as his own. Hacking on the fly against the same target gives you 1:3 odds that this occurs.

I don't know, In 2 years, My hacker has only done the low and slow probes a handful of times... the vast majority of my hacks are on the fly hacks...
anything else our team has done is generally a standard Data/Information gathering roll, and as such, there is no real hacking going on at that point...

This is one of the reasons that I have fairly good combat, stealth, and face skills (I try to get all my skills up to at least 3 before advancing them any further, though I do have 2 skills at 4 and 2 at 5)... we are often required to penetrate facilities that do not have everything on the grid, open and available for all to see... thus the requirement for the On the Fly hacking...

Of course, the karma totals in our group range from 225 to 310, so we are definitely not starting charactres any longer...

Keep the Faith

I don't really see the big issue with RAW.

Yes, the hacker is entering a seperate dungeon, but it is a mini-dungeon with one, two or sometimes three rooms. The most important factor is the master, keep the systems abstract and low in nodes. A "hack" should take at max 15 minutes, including cyber combat. Another point is to stress the risk involved (through example), so that hacking becomes a very valuable skill, but also one that you dont cast around with all the time (wasting everyones time).

turret example, spoof (yea i know, the swiss army knife) a command to alter the targeting data. As for the camera, SR4A at least mentions continuous edit (with a option to use control device in its place if one have direct access to the device).

also, there are some nice drones in unwired that makes life easier. One to make a tap on wired connections (like say next to a camera), one to extend network range, and one thats basically a nexus on wheels.

and i just checked something, even a slaved camera allows for hacking, if its accessed directly. Can someone say signal tap drone? Get the beetle up there, patch intothe cable, and then go about cracking that camera open. As its slaved, it probably relies on the firewall of the master node for security, so even with a +2 getting in should be quick work.

here is a spur of the moment thought. Give the sensors a difficulty rating (thats what their direct firewall will be), then designate what sensors, if not all, are slaved, and then the master node rating. Hack the master node, and one have ultimate control. Hack the individual sensors, with either spoof or drones and edit, and one have more indirect control.

Basically, a hacker in AR mode is pretty much a mage in astral perception mode. Either may come up against foes (IC or spirits) that the rest of the team cant touch. All in all, i dont see the "lone dungeon" issue, unless the player of the hacker insist on going VR at the drop of a credstick. But then thats pretty much the same as the mage going astral projection. If its about the VR sculpting, basically describe the inside of the node as the virtual equivalent of the physcial building, done for ease of use for the wageslaves walking the "halls" (if you know the location of the physical office, you also know the location of the VR office, and so where the data is). Heck, with AR/VR mix, it may make sense, as the physical workers and any telecommuters can interact using AR graphics on one side, and VR on the other. And that also works for the hacker now that i think about it. In much the same way that a astral mage can manifest, a Hacker can have his icon walk side by side with the physical team using AR graphics. This while his physical body is in the van, or the other side of the planet, and the connection is maintained by drones and taps into the buildings network.

From this post and your previous ones, I'm getting the impression that detection = failure in your games, am I correct in assuming this?

Out of curiosity, why?

It's not direct failure, it's that the firewall is now +4 to anything you do, the spyder's alerted, and the IC's pissed. You can't 'hang out' in the node to do cover work, you're now on a timeline. Worst case scenario, if the spyder gets completely smacked up and kicked out, he's going to issue a remote shutdown command.

This as a GM I wouldn't allow because you have to edit its data files, not just send it 'shoot at this guy'. Spoofs, to my understanding, need to be very simplistic and without a requirement of knowing the specifics of that machine.



Agreed, these drones are actually counterproductive to my personal re-imagining of how the matrix would be rebuilt, but would still make sense and I guess a necessary evil. Those beetles though are slow(ish), so I guess there's a tradeoff there. That and running a few miles of cable outside the building might be noticeable. Beware the street sweepers.



With a +2 to all skills, 5 IP passes compared to three, and other benefits, what hacker *doesn't* if the system can actually threaten him? Yeah, if the local grid's a milk and cookie run sure, your 2-3 meat passes will be good enough, but a serious system requires you to completely immerse.



This made more sense in the multi-node scenario of the older system, and was similar to some of our designs (a node for the security per room, the hacker moved along with the team, etc...) While not a bad idea, it seems like it's a workaround to the current system, not actually correcting the core failure.

That and as the game makes you take more tests (cybercombat vs. the IC, control of the network vs. spider) with each action initiating a chain reaction of more tests the odds that you "fail more" go up drastically to the point where you're presented with this scenario:

Option 1) Die/pass out due to dumpshock and the rest of the team dies because security is on high alert and you're not doing anything about it.
Option 2) Log out and the rest of the team dies because security is on high alert and you're not doing anything about it.

the way i read spoof is that its basically the command program, with the ability to switch "license plates". So if the admin can order the device to do something, so can the hacker using spoof. What a command can or can not do, thats open to the GM. But as a turret in SR most likely is a stationary drone (see smart firing platform, SR4 weapon accessories). And i would say that a turret can be ordered to ignore potential targets by the rigger, without the need to edit files or jump in. Its described as a dog brain, so if the trainer says "sit", the drone should do so.



micro-tapper goes 2/10, so it can run about as fast as a human can walk. And if there is anyone in the room, a small, slow moving object may actually draw less attention then something that goes zip (speaking from personal experience trying to keep track of rodents or insects). And it do not need to use cable, it can also do wireless. Heck, the repeater drone can do rating 3 laser (get it up above a door and its unlikely that anything beyond rain should get in the way) or rating 4 directional antenna.


And what threats are the physical side then facing? If the digital side is fort knox, while on the physical side the team can walk in, grab the node and walk out again with little risk, the IT department head really have a case of paranoia...


is there actually a core failure, or just a failure in seeing what actually can be done with the current rules? And why do there need to be a node for each room? its just a sculpt. Heck, there could be a node for each room, but a single login, or even have the room nodes slaved to a central node, so that it acts like one big node. It do not need to be complicated unless one try to make it complicated...

Its still a failure of the rules, ah la Quicksandbox.

if one are general enough, all rpg rules fall within that trope...

heck, there are more then one story about players showing up just to roll dice, hoping the GM provide all the details...

So option 3) The Hacker wins it, and takes control of the node is no longer possible. The poor Combat Hacker is a relic of the past.

If I were to redesign the Matrix rules, one question I'll ask, besides how to integrate the Hacker into the team is: how do you create suspense? Sneaking into a complex, hacking stealthily via probing, this to me (as a GM) is building suspense. It's all fine and dandy if everything works out according to plan, but that can sometimes be like sex without the orgasm. When sneaking finally fails, and your stealth is penetrated, this is the explosion at the end of the buildup.

It doesn't happen every game, but if I can provide my players with that nerdy adrenaline rush of almost pretend dying, I consider myself successful.

I guess, part of that, to me, is knowing how the turret says 'don't shoot this guy', comm id, photorecognition, uniform, etc. you have to know what to feed it which means breaking in and having access to the methods.



I'll try and be as succint as possible, as I'm at work and a wall of text will take too long. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There are three main problems with the core concepts being what they are:
1) The whining player saying 'But you're just being a dick' when I make the game that way when his hacker wants to break into the AAA Corp's private R&D, because the rules and fluff describe doing the equivalent and having a RAW vs. playability fight.
2) The player becomes a data-miner and electronics overwatch with some 'treasure steal' abilities, not an inclusion in the run with the rest of the people. We call the first half of that contacts, usually, and the second half is boring unless you develop a significant secondary dungeon, leading to...
3) To properly challenge a well developed hacker in the existing environment, you have to develop a significant second dungeon as a GM for them, and only them, to interact with on the occassional instance OR you have the 'pizza time!' issue. Redirecting the core purpose and usage of a hacker would lighten this requirement to reasonable levels.

Matrix Perception did away with the dungeon crawl, although I wish that Reality Filter had something to do with it. Once you know where it is, you can just go there. This is why I think they did the whole 20 questions thing for Matrix Perception. If the hacker needs to open the door, edit the camera, and edit his data trail, he'll need to know which nodes do that. If he only rolled two successes for Matrix Perception, and asks for the node for the door and camera, he'll have to spend another Complex Action to try to find the node to edit his data trail.

Option 3 was used up already, that's what got us to the lose-lose scenario.

That is, the situation is thus:

Hacker with 1 Matrix Condition box left facing off versus an IC (or opposing spider) who has more boxes remaining than the hacker can do in a single attack.

You know I have been thinking about this issue for the longest time. Why doesn't attributes factor into hacking? Well I was thinking about this while working with photoshop. It was at that point I realized it. The programs let you do what ever the function is and the skill is you level of being able to manipulate it on the fly. To make minor adjustments and the likes. I logic part only comes with the learning process and the skill is the manipulation. I showed my room mate how to edit out objects from a picture. He barely knows how to use P'shop. But he easily absorbed my lesson (Logic) and now he can do it with most photos (Skill) using P'shop (Program).

The system does illustrate how push button our society is now. And think about it in 2050 and then 2070. Yes, it will make you feel like a script kiddie. That is essentially what hackers in SR have become. It is the skill that really separates them now. On the flip side. I have been trying to think of a way to use Attrib+Skill and use the program as a die adder. Or maybe half the program rating or something.

But the main point is how the system works.
Some people mentioned that it is like running a game withing the game. Well now there is the option to get the hacker to go with the rest of the party. Unwired show all sorts of ways to keep a signal internal and they have good reasons to get the hacker to run with the team. It really is a matter of the role that you hacker is going to play. My players and every single one that I have had since 1st edition knew that if there was a decker involved then there would be some time that needed to be taken to get the hacking stuff out of the way. And the accepted that. They know that a hacker was an important part of the team. As it stands now, Any one can be a hacker just get some programs and some skills.

Well I said my thang...
Peace

Well, this topic has fallen quiet again, shame really..

I've been mulling about writing a new hacking system, but it's pretty hard to make something good. So I wonder, are there a couple of other people who would be interested in cooperating on a new write-up?

I would certainly be interested in helping brainstorm. But I think the biggest issue will be the one of encryption and finding a balance between ease of player character access as well as plausibility of protection for the world at large.

A key issue, even if it's magical fluff. Why are banks un-hackable when AAA corp deep research projects are? Why work for money when you can e-print it.

Exactly.

Quick edit:
http://xkcd.com/538/

The thing about the Matrix is that it effects everyone, but there is typically only one Hacker. The classic question: how do you bring the Hacker into the action with the rest of the team is a hard one.

Lets look at what the Matrix is suppose to be in Shadowrun. As I understand it, it is the medium in which most of the population uses for entertainment and business. Unlike magic and the Astral, which is available to a few, the Matrix is available to everyone. Someone who is Astral Projecting cannot effect the material except in a very limited way, someone in the Matrix can effect the real world in many ways.

If the Matrix is as prolific as television and telephones are today, why is there only one Hacker in the group? Instead of asking how to put the Hacker with the rest of the runners, isn't it more valid to ask, how to put the group with the Hacker.

A group of Shadowrunners can put their resources and talents together to defeat a larger group of corpsec. The corporation likewise should have great resources to protect itself from Matrix attacks, but the Hacker must go it alone.

I propose that the Matrix should be just as important in the rules and in the way Shadowrunners operate as it is within the background of the 6th world. In other words, everyone within the team should have some role to play in the Matrix.

Mechanically you have to make it advantageous for the non-hackers to have meaninful help they can give the hacker specialist without needing to pay karma for skills or a large hunk of cash for programs.

You also have to make it less VR (go unconscious and tool around) so that people can participate in both "realms" at the same time.

I refer you to the first post in the thread (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .