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> Should mages have to buy spells like adepts buy powers?, It seems like it would be more fair.
Banaticus
post May 19 2010, 02:13 AM
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I was looking at getting 4 IP's. It costs a Phys Adept 4 whole magic points. Samurai have to spend 25 build points (and 5 BP of that is a quality, so their positive qualities are capped at 30). If they don't take these penalties, they get to sit out of combat for a round every three rounds, or every other round or maybe if they try to go with no penalty, they only get to act once every few rounds.

Mages only have to spend 2 less build points than normal (to buy the spell) because every mage has 6 spellcasting and 6 Magic and so on average will likely be able to get four successes on the spell (cast at force 4 to cap yourself at 4 successes, which is all you need to hit a threshold of 4) with a drain of 4.

That hardly seems fair. Not to mention, mages get to cast "everything" with the full benefit of their spellcasting and magic. So here's my fix:

Mages must buy their spells just like adepts buy powers.

The Wired Reflexes 3 spell would perhaps cost 3 magic points (because it's not always on), each force level of the Heal spell would cost an additional .25 magic points (so a Force 6 Heal would cost 1.5 magic points), etc. Sure, all the spell prices would have to be reworked, but wouldn't it then at least be fair to both adepts and samurai?
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Ol' Scratch
post May 19 2010, 02:18 AM
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Considering that the spell is less effective than other alternatives (no Reaction boost), that it requires an expensive and high-Force sustaining focus or Karma-expensive options, can be dispelled, fluxuates depending on the background count, must either be extinguished and recast or time and effort must be wasted to get it past a ward, and that the drain is intense... yeah, no. I don't think it's much of a problem as you think it is.

A single force 1 Ward is enough to be a pain in the ass, unless the mage happens to have not only Masking but Extended Masking.
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Glyph
post May 19 2010, 02:25 AM
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Mages would hardly have any spells that way. Spells are far different than powers or internal 'ware. They have to be re-cast every time a mage needs to deactivate his focus to go through a ward, they are astrally conspicuous, they can be dispelled (or affected by background count, although the adept suffers that, too), and they cause Drain every time you cast them. Plus, the spell doesn't give a bonus to Reaction, only initiative. To get it, the mage needs the restricted gear quality and a rating: 4 sustaining focus, so you are looking at 20 BP (3 for the spell, 5 for the quality, 8 in resources, and 4 to bind the focus). Personally, I find the RAW more fair than your proposed solution.
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Banaticus
post May 19 2010, 02:34 AM
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Who cares about the reaction boost when you have physical invisibility and masking? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) The NPC can go first all they want, but they have to be able to see you to hit you and if you get a surprise attack off on them then they can't even dodge. A sustaining penalty is only two dice, so when you're used to rolling 12-20 dice to attack, that sustaining penalty just doesn't really matter.

Last time I made a big invisibility-type smashing character, I didn't bother buying reaction up at all, it's still at 1. It's just not important (I bought Agility up instead to attack better and do the occasional gymnastic dodge -- mainly, if I'm "dodging", I use parry). And since I'm not the driver, I only need a small drive skill to be able to drive out of there in case the driver dies (or I go invisible and duck into the mall or something).

Then there's the "getting better". It's relatively cheap for a samurai to buy up a skill and new spells are also cheap for a mage. Adepts have to initiate and raise an attribute, unless you use some optional rule to make it cheaper. Make the magician feel the same pain that the adept does in trying to get new skills, then cut back on nuyen a bit and suddenly everyone's skills and abilities and ware all gets better at the same rate.
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Glyph
post May 19 2010, 02:40 AM
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Mages usually have way more skills that they need to improve than an adept does. They are already Karma sinks. And lowering the nuyen rewards screws over the sammie, not the mage.

For better adept ability progression, I would suggest the house rule that they can choose an extra power point instead of a metamagic when they initiate.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post May 19 2010, 02:57 AM
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QUOTE (Banaticus @ May 18 2010, 07:13 PM) *
Mages only have to spend 2 less build points than normal (to buy the spell) because every mage has 6 spellcasting and 6 Magic and so on average will likely be able to get four successes on the spell (cast at force 4 to cap yourself at 4 successes, which is all you need to hit a threshold of 4) with a drain of 4.

That hardly seems fair. Not to mention, mages get to cast "everything" with the full benefit of their spellcasting and magic. So here's my fix:

Mages must buy their spells just like adepts buy powers.

The Wired Reflexes 3 spell would perhaps cost 3 magic points (because it's not always on), each force level of the Heal spell would cost an additional .25 magic points (so a Force 6 Heal would cost 1.5 magic points), etc. Sure, all the spell prices would have to be reworked, but wouldn't it then at least be fair to both adepts and samurai?


I do not know where exactly you are getting your numbers from, but not all Mages start at MAgic 6 and Spellcasting 6... In Fact, none of my mages have ever started with the stats that you ascribe to all mages... Just Sayin'

I do not see the problem with Mages that you apparently do...
No worries though...

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KCKitsune
post May 19 2010, 03:52 AM
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My Chaos Mage has a Magic 3 and Spell Casting 4, and a Power focus 2. So the idea of every mage starting out with Magic 6 is not correct.
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Karoline
post May 19 2010, 03:56 AM
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I'd think the going back to the older editions 'buying spells at a given force' would work better than arbitrarily assigning 'magic point' costs to every spell in the books. I kind of prefer the idea of force not being fixed like that though. Given the nature of magic, it seems weird that you would need to learn specifically how to cast a spell at a higher force, as opposed to just knowing the spell and being able to dump more magic into it. *shrug*

I do agree that mages tend to be powerful, but I think the solution lies in providing defenses against a mage that aren't 'geek the mage first' and 'have a mage on your side' as opposed to breaking out the nerf bat and beating the mage senseless.

Edit: Oh, and I agree with the others. While my mages do tend to have 6 spellcasting, they rarely have 6 magic, usually only 4 or 5 depending on the character.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post May 19 2010, 04:00 AM
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QUOTE (KCKitsune @ May 18 2010, 08:52 PM) *
My Chaos Mage has a Magic 3 and Spell Casting 4, and a Power focus 2. So the idea of every mage starting out with Magic 6 is not correct.


Indeed, My Black Mage is somewhat similar...

Spellcasting 3
Magic 2
Specialization in Manipulation +2
Mentor for Manipulation +2
No Power Focus yet... even after 100 karma...

Total Dice Pool: Non-Manipulation Spells - 5
Total Dice Pool: Manipulation Spells - 9

Far cry from Spellcasting 6, Magic 6...

Just Sayin'

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Banaticus
post May 19 2010, 06:12 AM
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Increasing the Magic attribute is the most expensive thing that you could possibly spend karma on (well, except bonding a Power focus) -- why wouldn't anyone who was planning on basing their character around magic buy it at 6 during character creation when it's so incredibly (comparatively speaking) cheap? Especially if you're planning on playing the character long enough to put a whole bunch of karma into it. I can see not buying the spellcasting skill at 6 if your skill focus is in another area, but spending that bp on something other than attributes means you're going to end up spending x2 or maybe even x3 the amount of karma that you would otherwise have had to spend.
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Glyph
post May 19 2010, 06:32 AM
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That last point of Magic costs 25 points, rather than 10, making it more of a hit to your precious build points, which tend to be spread very thin for a mage. It is one of the few areas where I will even consider hard-maxing an Attribute, but it is by no means a given. Build points tend to be worth more than Karma for a lot of things (especially binding foci), so 25 build points is actually worth slightly more than the 30 Karma to raise it to a 6 later.
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Whipstitch
post May 19 2010, 06:35 AM
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QUOTE (Banaticus @ May 18 2010, 09:34 PM) *
Who cares about the reaction boost when you have physical invisibility and masking?


Me. Sometimes it's living long enough to cast to begin with that's the bugger.


QUOTE (Banaticus @ May 18 2010, 09:13 PM) *
because every mage has 6 spellcasting and 6 Magic



Yeah, I would play mages almost exclusively if GMs gave me the opportunity, and I've never actually done that, except one time when we were given a whole mess of extra BP and toss the 1 skill at 6 cap out the window. Even then I promptly got myself 2 essence worth of cyberware so I could be more well-rounded. I would likely give up Spellcasting and spells before I would give up Summoning, to be perfectly honest. Spellcasting is extremely powerful, but once you factor in the BP per spell and the dice needed to consistently get the hits it actually becomes a much more expensive path to having a variety of magical tricks up your sleeves than the shrewd use of spirits is. After all, a force 3 Plant Spirit comes with glitch insurance, modest counterspelling, Concealment and Fear right out of the box. Not too shabby when you consider how little skill it actually takes to wring a service or two out of one. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that some minor dabbling in conjuration and counter magic is likely the only remotely cost effective way to utilize the Mystic Adept quality.


Besides, grabbing 6 Magic via BP may be relatively cost effective compared to buying it up with Karma, but if you spend too much BP with a mind for saving points in the long term you may very well find yourself burning Edge in the short term if you skip too many bread and butter skills.
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Whipstitch
post May 19 2010, 06:40 AM
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Oops.
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toturi
post May 19 2010, 06:45 AM
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Magic 1 (base cost of magician)
Magic 2-5 (10 per point)
Magic 6 (25 per point)

From Magic 2-5, there are increasing efficiencies using BP. But at Magic 6, there is a sharp fall in BP efficiency again. to about Magic 2 levels. Thus it is often mechanically better not to push Magic (or any other Attribute) to the chargen maximums.

There are other considerations that, by RAW, argue against not having max Magic as well but what I mentioned above usually suffice.
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Ol' Scratch
post May 19 2010, 06:51 AM
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Personally, I'd rather blow the 25 BP (actually 23; 15 for the Focus, 5 for Restricted Gear, and 3 to Bind) on a Force 3 Power Focus for an effective +3 to Magic, or maybe raise several of my skills (or even buy a ton of specializations), or raise two of my other attributes by +1, or pretty much anything other than improving my Magic by a paltry +1.

But hey, what do we know? We've only been playing the game for years and years across multiple editions. Clearly the guy who couldn't even find the price list for foci has it all figured out.
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Synner667
post May 19 2010, 08:08 AM
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QUOTE (Banaticus @ May 19 2010, 03:34 AM) *
Who cares about the reaction boost when you have physical invisibility and masking? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) The NPC can go first all they want, but they have to be able to see you to hit you and if you get a surprise attack off on them then they can't even dodge. A sustaining penalty is only two dice, so when you're used to rolling 12-20 dice to attack, that sustaining penalty just doesn't really matter.

Last time I made a big invisibility-type smashing character, I didn't bother buying reaction up at all, it's still at 1. It's just not important (I bought Agility up instead to attack better and do the occasional gymnastic dodge -- mainly, if I'm "dodging", I use parry). And since I'm not the driver, I only need a small drive skill to be able to drive out of there in case the driver dies (or I go invisible and duck into the mall or something).

And this is why superspeedy combat monster characters are sooo unnecessary, and the whole "everyone must have 4 IPs else they can't get involved in combat" thing is misleading...
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Whipstitch
post May 19 2010, 08:54 AM
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Except that invisibility isn't foolproof.
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Cardul
post May 19 2010, 10:06 AM
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QUOTE (Synner667 @ May 19 2010, 03:08 AM) *
And this is why superspeedy combat monster characters are sooo unnecessary, and the whole "everyone must have 4 IPs else they can't get involved in combat" thing is misleading...


Heck, honestly, I rarely see ANYONE running around with 4 IP out of Chargen. Even an Adept is unlikely to sink
all that magic into the boost when there are other powers they will likely want. Besides: Most of the time, you
are taking on NORMAL guards, who, at most, will have Wired 1. If you have 3 IP from any method, you are still
out speeding the guards(who do not have Edge to spend for an extra Pass).
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Mäx
post May 19 2010, 11:23 AM
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QUOTE (Banaticus @ May 19 2010, 04:34 AM) *
Who cares about the reaction boost when you have physical invisibility and masking? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) The NPC can go first all they want, but they have to be able to see you to hit you and if you get a surprise attack off on them then they can't even dodge. A sustaining penalty is only two dice, so when you're used to rolling 12-20 dice to attack, that sustaining penalty just doesn't really matter.

Could you please tell me what attacking dicepool does your mage character has in the 12-20 point range, especially the upper end.
QUOTE (Banaticus @ May 19 2010, 08:12 AM) *
Increasing the Magic attribute is the most expensive thing that you could possibly spend karma on (well, except bonding a Power focus) -- why wouldn't anyone who was planning on basing their character around magic buy it at 6 during character creation when it's so incredibly (comparatively speaking) cheap? Especially if you're planning on playing the character long enough to put a whole bunch of karma into it. I can see not buying the spellcasting skill at 6 if your skill focus is in another area, but spending that bp on something other than attributes means you're going to end up spending x2 or maybe even x3 the amount of karma that you would otherwise have had to spend.

This post sums up nicely why karma-gen is 1000times better then BP-gen, gets nicely rid of idiotic sheanigans like that.
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Nixda
post May 19 2010, 11:44 AM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ May 19 2010, 08:51 AM) *
Personally, I'd rather blow the 25 BP (actually 23; 15 for the Focus, 5 for Restricted Gear, and 3 to Bind) on a Force 3 Power Focus for an effective +3 to Magic, or maybe raise several of my skills (or even buy a ton of specializations), or raise two of my other attributes by +1, or pretty much anything other than improving my Magic by a paltry +1.

But hey, what do we know? We've only been playing the game for years and years across multiple editions. Clearly the guy who couldn't even find the price list for foci has it all figured out.


I agree with your math, but I think it really depends on what plan the player has for his character in terms of past-creation development.
I usually go more for long-term development and a Force 3 Power Focus would never be attractive to me. I would want a higher force Power Focus (6 or more) eventually because since only a single focus may add dice to any pool and it overlaps with many other categories of Foci.

And starting with magic 6 and starting to save up karma to bind a Force 6 Power Focus instead of having to raise magic first doesnt seem that inefficient to me, karma-wise.
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Rasumichin
post May 19 2010, 02:17 PM
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QUOTE (Banaticus @ May 19 2010, 03:34 AM) *
Who cares about the reaction boost when you have physical invisibility and masking?


Anybody who goes up against opponents that do not rely on sight.
Like most guard critters, ghouls, spirits, anybody with a radar sensor, a lot of drones and so on.
I know why i prefer Concealment over Invisibility.

BTW, what does Masking have to do with that?
It doesn't make you invisible on the astral, it just alters your aura's appearance.
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Banaticus
post May 19 2010, 07:14 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ May 19 2010, 04:23 AM) *
This post sums up nicely why karma-gen is 1000times better then BP-gen, gets nicely rid of idiotic sheanigans like that.

In the case of karma gen, if you're planning on increasing the stat ever, then it's going to be the same price to increase it then as now. You might as well bump it up now to get the benefit now.
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TommyTwoToes
post May 19 2010, 07:41 PM
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QUOTE (Banaticus @ May 19 2010, 02:14 PM) *
In the case of karma gen, if you're planning on increasing the stat ever, then it's going to be the same price to increase it then as now. You might as well bump it up now to get the benefit now.


Unless there is a skill you need on your first Run or two that you didn't buy because you spent all your points on that 6 Magic.

As for the Dicepool, I was munching away on his numbers and

6 Magic + 6 Spellcasting + 2 Mentor + 2 Specialization + 4 Spell focus could get him up to 20 DP, but he would be very much a 1 trick pony.

If he takes manipulation for his area of specialization he would be more useful than as a combat caster but that is a whole nother ball of wax.
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jimbo
post May 19 2010, 08:17 PM
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So are power foci really that much better to get at chargen? I realize that after attribute, skill, and mentor spirit options are limited for out of the gate power/survivability. It just seems for a R2 power foci I'd rather pay money and 16 karma later than 12 BPs at generation. There's not a big hit to efficiency there.

Just curious for thoughts from the more experienced...
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Tanegar
post May 19 2010, 08:22 PM
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If you're going to get a power focus at chargen, IMO you might as well pop the 29BP for a Force 4 focus. (5 for Restricted Gear, 20 for the 100,000 nuyen monetary cost, 4 to bond it.)
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