I assume people ignored it because it's not a solution. If everyone needs a Quality, it's not a Quality any more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Just because your house rule is shit, further re-enforcing the no cost/low cost magic of SR4, doesn't mean I need to find a different game. Magic vs Tech is a core concept of the game and a choice has to be made your system basically takes an already imbalanced system and further skews it towards high essence/magic users. There are a number of other viable stats, edge, intuition, double willpower, heck even giving strength of all things some love however despite how you feel your being picked on (and that's what all your passive aggressive bullshit comes down to) it doesn't invalidate my views.

Again, just because your work around is flawed doesn't mean I need to find another game, if my posts annoy you so much I fully invite you to take your own advice and put me on ignore, I can handle your asinine behavior without resorting to childish rhetoric why can't you do the same.

That's not what you were ranting about, nor what I was replying to. Nice try, though.


What's even more pathetic on your part is that I said the same damn thing in my posts. Once again: Essence was just an example and a suggestion. I even included Edge in the examples. Since you're either unwilling or unable to actually read the text, here's a summary: My suggestion was to get rid of counterspelling as a passive ability and using two attributes for resistance tests.


That wasn't aimed at you. Your inability to identify your own quotes, let alone mistake someone else's name as your own, is an issue you need to work out. Not me.

Funk did you ever consider if multiple folks have a problem making sense of your position the problem might be you? Did that thought ever cross your mind?



This is where it all starts, you being a dick everything else was you drawing your own conclusions. You took a difference of opinion into a borderline personal attack. Again this notion that high essence should be rewarded (further) then it already is is bull and is further skewing the game world. The game cannot be about the conflict of magic vs technology if magic (which higher essence is to the benefit of) is the clearly superior choice.

ITT: a passive aggressive post inspires an aggressive post which then leads to one of the passive aggressive guys calling the aggressive guy out for being passive aggressive. lolwut?

I mean, if we really want to start keeping score, people may want to stop leading off posts with swearing, rhetorical questions and telling each other that we don't know what we're talking about.

So nerfing magic double hard against magic users skews things towards magic?

You're still nerfing magic here. Magic was never magebane. That's what bullets and robits are for.

I just want to say that robit is my favorite intentional misspelling.

Yeah, I can see why you'd have trouble understanding that. Especially since in my very next post of the thread, I even expounded upon what I meant regarding the Spell Defense part.


Except my example of the suggestions I had didn't do anything of the sort (since the end example was Stat + Edge + Essence vs. Magic + Spellcasting + Focus/Mentor), other than give characters with a high Essence an additional boost, which is in line with how spell defense works right now in regards to magicians. And, frankly, magicians should be better at resisting spells since, you know, that's their whole gig. In case math is a bit hard for you, that's giving non-magicians a much better chance at resisting spells all on their own, without having a mage around. It just also adds a repercussion for lowering your Essence -- something 4th Edition is all but missing -- while still boosting their overall resistance to magic. It's not like you're not gaining a ton more benefit out of the deal, either.

So, yeah, my example makes going down to an Essence of 0.01 a harder choice. Oh no. Unfortunately, they'd still get to roll Stat + Edge against spells, which is more than they do now. I can see how you'd think that somehow makes them more vulnerable or something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

Keep it cool folks.

Interesting idea. I do something similar already to streamline magical resistance into a (mostly) single rules set for combat defense tests, which also underwent a similar revision for multiple reasons. Counterspelling is considered an Active Defense, adding the Counterspelling dice to the subject's Defense. Full Counterspelling is considered to be a Full Defense, adding the Counterspelling dice to the subject's Defense.

Active Defense must be declared on each of the character's Initiative Passes, consuming a Free Action, and applies until their next Initiative Pass.
Full Defense is an Interrupt Action, meaning it takes a Complex Action, but does not need to be declared in advance. If declared in response to an attack, it consumes the characters next Complex Action as normal.

Active & Full Defense essentially have the same effect, but different times they can be used and have cumulative effects.
Melee & Ranged defense (in my House Rules) both use this system; Reaction for passive defense : Reaction + Skill for active or full defense : Reaction + Skill + Skill for active and full defense.

See below for mundane resistance.


Something I never actually thought of, but do like & think I will be using. Mundanes can learn any active magical skill without restriction. They cannot, however, use any application of those skills that requires a Magic attribute (a mundane can use Banishing for an Attack of Will, but not banishing a spirit; a mundane can use Counterspelling for spell defense, but not for dispelling an active spell). They of course must meet all other prerequisites of using a skill as well - one cannot use Assensing if they are not astrally perceiving (something a mundane cannot do barring specific exceptions - usually drugs).


An actually usable variant of the "Overcasting Drain is equal to the Force of the spell, instead of half Force" I commonly seen thrown around. Again, not something I had thought of myself, but I might actually end up using it. The rule that I was using, but never really ever came up in my game, was requiring a Composure Test to overcast, with a Threshold based on one-half the Drain Value. Failure indicates casting at maximum "normal" Force instead of the intended Overcasting.

I think I might actually prefer yours.


The problem with this is, Rules as Commonly Interpreted, Thresholds & Opposed Tests are mutually exclusive. This is false, as described below, but essentially makes it so Mental Manipulation effects under this rule would actually become more powerful overall.

Rules as Written, Opposed Tests & Thresholds are not actually mutually exclusive, but their are no rules explaining how they interact with each other if they are combined - with multiple entirely viable interpretations of how it works. I suggest the following:

On an Opposed Threshold Test, you determine the Opposed Test as normal. Any Hits in excess of that of the defender (Net Hits) are applied towards the Threshold. If the Threshold is then met, any additional hits are treated as Net Hits as normal.

Under my suggested ruling, your idea of a Mental Manipulation threshold is actually a viable way of limiting those spells - one that I am unsure if I would use, but do kind of like.

Side Note: Using my suggested ruling on Opposed Thresholds, you can do away with the Anniversary bullshit of how Counterspelling works with Object Resistance.


I have said it many times on the forums, & I guess I'm saying it again.

House Rule:
A character's natural maximum for the Magic/Resonance attribute is equal to their Essence + Initiate/Submersion Grade, rounded down, with an absolute maximum of 7.
A character's maximum Initiate/Submersion Grade is equal to their Magic/Resonance attribute, with an absolute maximum of 5.

This rule almost never actually affects a character, but in my experience has greatly improved gameplay overall as well as adding consistency to the system. It does not, however, entirely fix some of the issues of RAW "unlimited advancement". As such, I have been toying with an idea of changing the maximum Magic/Resonance to Essence, rounded down (removing Initiation/Submersion influence entirely), and adding another "Lucky" quality that applies to Magic or Resonance.

Dr. Funk, you and the others in this thread are trying so hard to come up with rules that might or might not work in reducing the effects of magic. My solution is something that would give the Street Sam a chance of resisting magic, but it comes with a price. It's the old "You can't have your cake and eat it to." dilemma. With what you are suggesting, everyone gets a freebie without having to pay for it.

But it's not a solution. You just put a 5 BP discount on Arcane Arrester (by not having to buy the Changeling quality), and removed any flavor from it that comes from having to take at least one negative SURGE trait. That's not really doing anything at all. Especially considering that they already had access to Magic Resistance as a trait anyway. How exactly is your change going to actually tame magic? How is it going to guarantee that everyone on the planet has this quality? Why are you being so brutal about it (since, by the rules, it also means such a character can only ever get 5-10 BPs worth of positive qualities if they take it courtesy of the 35 BP limit)?

I'd rather work on an actual solution than slap a patch over it. Especially when the patch doesn't really do much of anything that doesn't already exist.

Are you going to nerf drones and guns as well? If you are going to nerf one aspect of the game, then you should balance it out by nerfing other parts of the game.

To be honest I can’t see what all the fuss is about. Mages are very BP and Karma costly and almost every spell has the possibility (or probability) in some cases of causing damage to the caster. Drones (which by fluff are very common in security situations) will cause trouble for most mages if not all of them, line of sight can be broken easily and then with the GM playing fair to everyone modifiers can lower what might be a good dice pool down to something average at best pretty quickly.

Granted mana bolt and mana ball can seem overpowered but then the cost to use them effectively hinders the mage in many other areas

My brief comparison below is based on a human one aimed at magic one aimed at pistols

Magician quality 15bp
Magic up to five 40bp
Spellcasting up to six 24bp
Specialised for combat 2bp
Mentor for combat 5bp (which if played right by the GM should be just as much of a hindrance as a benefit)
Mana bolt Spell 3bp

Total bp cost of 89bp to give a dice pool of 15
and assuming cast at force five a drain threshold of two every time it is cast which granted would be covered by a probable dice pool for drain of 10 (but this will also cost bp) but eventually the law of averages will catch up with you and your going to suffer

Now in some respects that scenario is a bit twinked but not to any great level

Taking a gunner into account we have

Agility to five 40bp
Pistols to six 24bp
Specialised to semi auto 2bp
Ares Pred plus glasses for smartlink plus ammo 1bp (ok being generous with that one I know)

Total bp cost of 67 for a dice pool of 15 which can be fired twice in the time the mage casts one bolt. Add in a minimal bit of recoil reduction in and we have twice the possible damage output (both attacks base of five plus net hits) for a cheaper build

Now we come to the application of the damage

Basic grunt security officer

Body 3 Reaction 4 Willpower 3 armour of B6

Assuming average rolls for the mage we have five hits and the grunt getting one hit bringing damage to 9stun using a complex action


First simple action for the gunbunny
Assuming the same for the gunbunny with have the gunbunny getting five hits and the grunt getting between one and two I’ll be generous to him and give two for the first attack reducing the net hits to three and the damage to 8P (higher then armour). The grunt also gets to soak it with armour and body with a minimum minus one due to the AP of the gun (this could be much higher for little extra money) again lets be generous and say the grunt gets three hits bringing the damage down to 5P

This leaves the grunt on -1 to everything plus an additional - 1 to dodging in the second IP

Second simple action
Assuming worst case of averages Gunbunny gets four hits (I’m assuming basic gun no recoil compensation) for his second shot with the grunt on –two for his reaction test due to already defending plus damage it is unlikely that he will get any hits but again lets be generous and give him one hit bringing damage again down to 8P. Again we have soak rolls which for this scenario stays the same we again have three hits and a final damage of 5P


Overall damage mage 9S Gunbunny 10P

A basic gunbunny with no real cost (and cyber in this instance) can do equal damage to a similar build mage even with the law of averages slightly tipped against them. Add in the ability to throw more money (more easy to come by then karma) and the gunbunny can easily do serious damage even to the level of one shotting a grunt

Now the scenarios can be easily tipped in favour of either person the mage could get a focus to boost them the gunner could get better ammo or for similar spend get a higher power weapons. Visibility modifiers are more damaging for the mage over the gunner as a mage must use natural sight or spend on cyberware to get those benefits which again effects the costs of for magic where as for the gunner a cheap upgrade to their glasses costs almost nothing in real terms.

Now you could then move onto the mana ball issue with area effects but is a area spell that effects the mind really more dangerous then a couple of air burst grenades which could contain almost anything?

This has got abit long winded so I’m going to stop here and have a breather

That's assuming the current paradigm is already balanced out and that what people are proposing is merely an attempt to lower overall power levels. A lot of people feel that drain and the other disadvantages of spellcasting aren't enough to compensate for the fact that the vast majority of characters in the SR4 world cannot ever acquire Counterspelling. That's a rough hand to be dealt when you consider that the Attribute+Skill opposed test is a central SR4 mechanic.


As for the above points, I think the karma/bp cost issue needs to be considered real carefully, since not everything you can get with karma or bp is created equal despite the often uniform costs present in the game. Buying up spellcasting and Magic is rather expensive, but I would argue that it's one of the most cost effective skill+attribute combinations in the game due to the diverse array of effects you can keep adding onto your character from that point forward. Let me put it this way: A samurai can't pay 5 karma for the ability to control minds with his Agility+Automatics pool, but a Magician can pay 5 karma to do so with his Magic+Spellcasting pool. Magical abilities are expensive, but I'd say you get more than you pay for in return; there's very few archetypes that can get away with running with as narrow a range of skills as a Magician can, and that's in large part because magic can emulate many skills when used properly.

Whipstitch, I said that drones and guns would have be balanced out compared to spells. If it's shown that spells need to be nerfed more than guns then do so, but Dr. Funk and the others were trying to create a ton of new house rules to make magic "more balanced". I say allow more people to have access to Arcane Arrester and see how that works.

Actually, nerfing all aspects of the game at once is exactly what balancing isn't. The whole point is to tweak one thing relative to the rest.

Granted that magic does open up other avenues to work with, but this has to be taken into balance against the inherent damage it will
do over time to the mage even low drain spells will cause damage eventually. Drain soak rolls can get quite high with initiation but that will vary from game to game based on karma awarded and ordeals / groups being avaliable.

I find the proposed image of the utility mage who can do everything with the right spell unlikly in my comparison above without a focus a mage can cap out with a spellcasting pool of about 15 for a specialised area droping to 11 - 13 (depending on mentor) for everything else. This pool can go up if you want to spend all your karma on upping your magic stat (which would mean almost no chance of new spells past first creation) but its that or a expensive (Money and Karma) focus. In fact alot of the fun / useful spells that you can pick up only become viable in some respects if you use alot of focuses which again if the GM is playing things right have negatives of their own.

In SR3 the TNs for healing spells were modified based on how low the target's essence was (TN = 10-ess? something like that). Don't know SR4A well enough to guess whether anything similar was created in the current system, but has anyone considered applying a rule like this across the board for all spell resistance? Maybe Spell Resistance = Will + Spell Defense (if any) + essence lost, meaning an average street sam (ess 2.0, essence lost 4, will 4) would have a spell resistance pool of 8 without backup?

Whilst I'm not seeing much wrong with the current set up I can see that idea having some use. The fluff implies that with less of a aura your harder to heal, damage (direct not elemental) would be as difficult. It would also work well with the cybermancy where if you go past the point of 0 Ess you become something else something more negative to magic.

Fluff? Doesn't the Healing Modifiers Table on P. 253 SR4A have an entry "Patient has Implants" with "-1 per 2 points of lost Essence"?

Edit: And on P. 207 SR4A, Under "Healing Characters with Implants" has "In game terms, this means a dice pool modifier applies to the Spellcasting Test equal to the subject’s lost Essence (rounded down)."

See I was right, thanks for the quote,

Sometimes I hate being away from books

Manabolt is hardly an even comparison against a pistol. Sure, it does "almost the same thing" except that magic can be so much better.

How about Control Thoughts: "That guy behind you is a traitor! He's going to cap you!"

You've now turned one spell--with relatively moderate drain, considering all possible options--and taken out two guards (minimum) and redirected some bullets away from the party* while the gunbunny took out one in the same amount of time.

*Worst case scenario:
Control Thoughts Guard: shoots second guard, who dies (1 down, 1 thrall)
Third guard shoots CTG, who dies (2 down, 1 volley of ammo directed somewhere other than the PCs as it was used to take down the thrall)

Better scenario:
CTG shoots second guard (1 down)
Third guard shoots CTG (1 down, 1 injured, 1 redirect)
Fourth guard shoots CTG (2 down, 2 redirects)
Fifth guard--buddy of CTG--freaks out and shoots second guard (2 down, 1 injured, 3 redirects, 1 crazy)

To use control thoughts properly takes at least two IPs one to cast it and then the second to use it with a simple action. Plus the action by the grunt still comes on their IP round which might not be till the next round if your slow on the initiative. This also requires you to get the drop on the enemy as if you don't your still first in the firing line while your waiting for your next turn and odds are if you have a team with you the action is mostly finished within the first round if your only seeing off a couple of weak grunts.

If it was a big enough fight that the combat lasts a few rounds where the delay wouldn't matter and your pawn has a effect I would be surprised if there was no magical support or drones for that matter.

There's no way to say in the right situation its a very powerful spell in itself but again it has limits the drain isn't terrible but when you realise if you want to keep your puppet for more then 6 – 9 seconds your probably going to take some drain as the spell can be fought off pretty quickly even by grunts (three willpower gives on average one hit reduction in the spell every force rounds)

At the end of the day this again comes back to my point that a GM playing things fairly makes it hard for the Mage to get to silly.

Group edge is there to be used, if a mental manipulation spell like that doesn't call for a edge roll nothing will.
Mental spells like that are highly illegal, and very noticeable in hindsight cctv footage of a guard turning round and opening fire on his team might be noticed. If you use that kind of tactics regularly people will notice and not be amused. Depending on how your game is running I would expect some change in how people act around a Mage known to mess with peoples minds not even counting how the team might react.

At the end of the day one good gas grenade will take out the same people for less cost and less of the downsides.

Lansdren, while I don't disagree with your BP cost my basic problem with all magic is there are less options for you to buy for defense where as against the gun you can always buy armor, raise your body, reaction, and etc. This means by spending a little extra BP or Karma you now have a edge against even the bad guy with 1000 Karma or 1,000,000,000 nuyen compared to the guy with the gun. As for Control Thoughts, what about when you use it outside of combat? Thats where the control spells are overpowered because the mage will win for a round or two most of the time before the NPC can get enough successes to break free.

[Edit] The way I usually see the Control Thoughts and similar spells abuses is "Tell me where this is" or "give me the passcode" or "open the door" and not in combat.