Shh, don't bring it to his attention. It's more humorous that way.

Drones with a Pilot 6 and an Autosoft could have as many as 10 dice... and if it is piloted by a rigger, it may have significantly more than that...

You are right that they get to avoid gunfinre as well, but I was pointing out that the Indirect Spells (That ignore Object Resistance) are no better than any other non-magical option, that's all...

Just sayin'

Keep the Faith

Yeah, i never said they are, just that mages are not powerless against drones.

Gotcha...

Sorry for the confusion then...

Keep the Faith

In my defense I was at work and clearly not thinking.

Sounds like a great idea, if you add 'drain' to firing guns too. I can hardly wait to see your sammy's knock themselves out after a full auto burst.

I have to say I think after a quick read, I really like your idea for active and full defense, it makes a lot of sense to me mechanically, and from a 'physics' stand point. If you are 'ready' to dodge, you'll do better at it, and if you are not only ready to before the attack is apparent, but actively doing it once you know you're in trouble, you should have a reasonable chance of not going splat.



Giving the magical equivalent of a dodge skill. I kinda like it, the only problem is if you have a mundane with this, on 'active' defense, with a mage overwatching on 'active and full' defense, then they effectively become untouchable.







I think having the portion of the drain which is below their overcast limit remain stun, but the part above be physical, with a composure test to equal to the amount of physical drain to even pull it off would be fair. Most people don't like the idea of microwaving themselves.



I have a significant issue with this, in that it effectively gives people a bonus equal effectively granting them 3/2 more will power then they had before. If combined with your active/full defense idea makes mental manipulations spells nearly meaningless. If you have a 4 will power, and 4 counter spelling skill, and know you're going into combat against a mage, it would mean then when you feel the manipulation starting and go for full defense, you're dropping and equivalent to 18 dice to avoid the attack, which for a 4 stat, and 4 skill with no ware, or anything else, is ridiculous, considering the bp/karma needed to get the mage edge, the magic, and the skill needed to get 18 dice to attack with.



I'm again not a fan of this even conceptually, as mages may be called upon to deal with force 8+ spirits, or dragons with a magic of 8+, and thus they are left out in the cold against such creatures.

(Heavily edited)

Forget no, but with everyone bitching about how tough mages are, and yet forgetting that against drones, they border on almost completely useless.

This seems to be overlooked by nearly everyone involved.

If you could show me where in the BBB it says direct spells get to ignore OR, I've like to read it.

Which last I checked all had to overcome OR, which means needing to beat the OR5 most drones have, combined with a decent body, you're likely going to hurt them in the slightest.

I would not classify Mages as almost completely useless against Drones... do they have difficulty on occassion? Sure... but so does a Gunbunny against some drones... An Object Resistance Threshold of 5 for an effect against the drone is not really all that hard to accomplish, and I routinely see Mages beating this threshold... yes, sometimes they will indeed fail, but by no means will they fail every time. Of course, that does mean that the average Mage has to overcast (Average Magic of 3-4) to actually hurt the drone, and this has its own drawbacks... But with Spellcasting Dicepools in the 14-16 Range, as commonly cited here on Dumpshock, this is an almost guaranteed success at average rolls, each and every time... More "Average Dice Pools still result in Pools in the 12 DP Range (3 Skill + 3 Stat + Spec + R2 PF + Possible Mentor Bonus = 12)

Sounds about right, as your Gun Bunnies can gear up with weapons capable of fighting the drones, and can routinely obtain enough hits against a drone to cause actual damage against the drone...

Yes, sometimes they will not hurt the drone, but oftentimes they will, assuming that they knew before going in that they might run up against such things, and equipped themselves accordingly...

The biggest benefit of the Combat Mage, is that he will almost always have his Drone Killing Spells available, while the Gunbunny may or may not have access to his Drone Killing Weaponry when he needs it the most...

Keep the Faith

Indirect Elemental Spells get to Ignore OR, as they have an actual physical component that can damage targets, and as such, ignore Object Resistance... Direct Damage Spells MUST defeat the OR to have an effect...

SR4A, Page 204, Left Side of Page, Section Titled: Indirect Combat Spells

That should do it...

Keep the Faith

If you look at the description of the Spell, they are variations of Toxic Wave and Acid Stream, except task limited to a specific target... the parent spells are Opposed Tests (Reaction). The Restricted versions of these Indirect Spells are, oddly enough, Success Tests (OR)... in my opnion, they should not be so... If you need an in game rationale for such stats, then I would say that it is because the Corrode/Melt/Slude Spells actually only impact the restricted aspect of the spell itself (its target), at which point, the weapon gets to resist the damage...

If it was me, I would apply any damage, past the OR, directly to the weapon/object/etc. (as it is using Targeted OR Rules, much like the Direct Damage Spells do) and not allow the item to apply its Body as a means to resist some of the damage (as a Normal Opposed Indirect Spell would normally get) inflicted...

Or, just ignore the S (OR) portion, and treat it as an Opposed test with the target resisting with its body, like a normal Indirect Spell would resolve...

Just me though...

Keep the Faith

You do know that a lightning bolt is an indirect elemental spell and those damm sure get to ingnore OR.
OR definedly doesn't come in to equation when i shoot an actual lighting at a drone or do you allow drones to resist bullets with OR.

Actually, Rules as Written, no. Indirect Combat Spells are subject to Object Resistance, just like every other spell in the book.

If you disagree, provide a rules quote to the contrary (yes, I am aware an example contradicts this, just as I am aware an example is not actually a rule).


The rules do say that some spells may be subject to Object Resistance (& thus, that some spells may not). It does not provide any more information on which spells are which. It does provide a fixed rule that spells are subject to Object Resistance, as quoted above. Some spells (Physical Manipulations) specifically say they are subject to object resistance - this is a redundant statement - we already know they are, because they are not listed as an exception to the OR rule.

No spell or category of spell is listed as an exception to this rule that governs all spells. Thus, even Indirect Combat Spells are indeed subject to OR.




I have gone over this multiple times before.
It is (probably) not Rules as Intended.
It does not function this way in my games.
It is Rules as Written.

And you can go over it until your hearts content... the following Quote, from SR4A clearly indicates that you are wrong... as has been stated many many times over the last year...



As you can see... Indirect Combat Spells do not Suffer Object Resistance AT ALL... Note the Specific Lack thereof in the spell type's description...

You can go on and keep quoting, but the Specific (Indirect Spells) outweighs the General (Spellcasting)... Always has...

I think that that should cover it...

Keep the Faith

Muspellsheimr does raise a good point, but then I would always consider that elemental spells aren't cast ON something. This is why fireball can ignore line of sight but mana/stun/power ball can't(which is likely why the clarification Tymeaus pointed out exists). To clarify as I read that back to myself...if you fireball a corner, the explosion goes round the corner out of sight if that makes sense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

FYI - As of SR4A Indirect Spells were intended to ignore OR - however, it's quite possible my successors may consider ruling otherwise so treat this unofficial until you see it in a FAQ or errata.

Ok, so its in SR4a as opposed to the BBB, cause I've been under the impression drones get OR + dodge + armor + body which was seeming a little retarded.

So its not just me, and there are indirect spells which have OR tests needed.... Right kinda what I thought.

Hence my complaints about mages and drones. I could not see how you could possibly attack something which is OR 5, and have 10+ dice to dodge with, and realistically expect to even hit let alone inflict damage.

Which is what I always understood... But thanks for the "Un-Official" information there Synner

Keep the Faith

And if you bothered to pay attention, that does not, in fact, declare Indirect spells as an exception to Object Resistance. All it does is say they are handled as an Opposed test to hit, vs. Reaction (+Dodge).

Before you continue, go read how the various types of tests work. There is nothing that forbids a test from being both Opposed and having a Threshold. This is something that I have already covered multiple times before - including in this thread.

And According to the Quote... IF you hit, then you go straight to damage resolution, or did you miss that part?

Again, the Specific trumps the General... Seems pretty obvious, and I even have the backing, though it may be "Un-Official" as far as you are concerned, of those who put the book together... So, as far as I am concerned, the debate is really over... you may feel free to pursue the methods you like (which, ironically, is the exact same method that the Designers clarified, in that Indirect Spells do not worry about OR)... I now which interpretation I am going to follow...

Keep the Faith

Maybe you should read how the fucking indirec combat spells work.
Targets get to try to dodge the spell and then gets to resist damage, nowhere during this does OR come in to the equation.
Rules how Indirec combat spell work a pretty fucking simple man, learn to read.