You seem to be implying that this somehow unbalances play in favor of sammys because they still get to shoot without Drain?

If that's the case you really should be comparing the dice pools and modifiers (Ranged Combat has more basic modifiers such as recoil and movement than Spellcasting even when GMs remember to impose Visibility and Cover modifiers to the latter) as well as the relevant dodge/damage resistance tests if you're trying to make the argument that it penalizes one over the other.

That's disregarding that the street sam still can't levitate stuff, make people invisible, cast a magical barrier to protect an entire team, tell spirits to off enemies hiding behind bulletproof obstacles, nor can he go all out and overcast his Ares Alpha long burst.

All the Drain modification does is make overcasting less appealing and favors reducing base Force of spells and spirits to a more easily resistable Force 3-4 than the default Force 5-6 and upwards (though you can still go to that range if you want to risk it). With non-maxed dice pools of 9-12 that still pretty dangerous and applies equally to area and single target spells. As a bonus it also favors summoning lower Force spirits whilst not making high Force entirely prohibitive (just making Drain and its consequences much more likely).

I honestly suggest you playtest the suggested house rule before commenting on potential metagame balance issues.

And with the same Attribute, no less. You can't just judge a skill or attribute based only on one facet of what it does. Even if combat spells were across the board always less effective at raw damage output than firearms, spell casting would still be useful because it can do so many things you simply cannot do with firearms-- I mean, really, let's be serious: firearm skills are likely the most narrow in the game. Even close combat skills can double as a source of defense pool dice.

I also don't think Direct Mana spells would be in any real danger of being rendered totally obsolete, either. They still bypass damage resistance sources like weapon immunity and armor and they can still be cast on the astral-- it's awful hard to argue that they really would have no niche. And at the very least, such spells would still have value on the physical plane for casters who cannot afford the physical stats and skills needed to be a competent marksman as well as a utility mage. A Force 3 Stun Bolt isn't very impressive, but neither is a heavy pistol in the hands of the average mage either.

It's still too much synner, even for NON-overcasting....

Force 3-4 on a lot of the bigger spells is STILL 6-8 drain. Which means the mage is taking 2-4 drain on pretty much EVERYTHING they do. Against a normal drain pool of 9-12, 3-4 means generally 0-2 drain per use. 5-6, pretty much assured at least 1-3, 7+ feel the pain.


I'm all for liberally applying visibility mods, and responsible use of background counts.

In a game like SR... generally people should be rewarded for playing smart and taking cover.

Also, lets not forget that SR4a changed cover mods (which I also strongly agree w/ using w/ spell defense the mage can't see your aura very well... whatever). Now they're bonuses to the defender's pool and not penalties to the casting pool. (which I actually like a bit more...). IE: the mage can't see the defenders aura very well. Also admittedly a lot of the time I use a handheld mirror to cast around corners for a further -2.

12sp vs 8wil is better than 8 vs 4... especially if you get edge involved. That dice relationship makes things work a lot better for both guns and spell defense. Unless someone pulls out a +5 drain code area spell like fireball which would ignore cover... but then they're taking a good bit of pain to inflict it. (force 5 fireball, 10 drain by your example. good luck soaking a lot of that drain). Really at that point, you're better off w/ a contact fused, or command detonated grenade. (toss it w/ one simple action, if you like where it is... command detonate it w/ a simple or free action).

That would be my basic complaint.


I tend to use recoil suppressed weapons as a sammy. This means if I'm firing short bursts each pass I don't have recoil. As for movement, unless laying down cover fire, I tend to fire from cover when I'm not moving. As for visibility modifiers, I use that radar sensor, ultrasound, and passive thermal. which means not even walls block my LOS. Given the way SR4 works avoiding firearms, its basically a 1 stat avoidance test anyway, and if you're worried about damage resistance stick and shocks, or AP rounds work great.



They can however have grappling hooks, or Vtol drones which can support their mass, ruthenium armor and smoke grenades, freeze foam, regular high explosive grenades or rockets, and do a long burst with their ares alpha. There are all equivalent.


And a sammy suffer no lasting penalty whether firing a holdout pistol or a panther assault cannon. So you are placing added limits on one, without touching what the other can do.

errrrr except there is no law that a mage cannot have a panther assault cannon or assault rifle, your logic is flawed.

I'm not sure that came out quite the way you intended.

Except for the part where they're not. Grapple guns are indeed nice if there's anything to actually winch yourself onto, but there's concealment and legality issues with weapons and the cheapest VTOL that's actually designed for metahuman transportation will set you back around 75 grand. The other drones are all small and purpose built enough where it's a bit of a crap shoot whether a GM will actually let one fly you anywhere, even at reduced speeds. I suppose there's that jetpack which can serve as a pretty good stand in for Levitate, but beyond that I'm still waiting to see the technological equivalent to mental manipulations and mana spells that can can nuke things in astral space or be used in Ritual Magic. And lastly, rockets and grenades don't fall under the same skill category as an Ares Alpha does-- if you want area of effect capability AND direct fire, you either need to pay for a couple of skills (Which is usually at least equivalent to buying a few spells) or start trying to sneak LMGs with you everywhere you go. That's not always viable even in Pink Mohawk games.

Raising drain is still the wrong solution. It makes SR magicians like lameass low-level D&D magicians who fire off their sleep spell, then they're all done. There are ways to give mundanes more of a break against magic without crippling mages in one of their main functions. Spellcasting already has drain codes, where a mage risks fatigue every time they cast a spell. Raising it to the point where drain is unavoidable makes mages all but unplayable. And it gives a huge break to the NPC mages, who only have to worry about that one encounter.

If you honestly think mages are too versatile, you fix it by making spells cost more. I don't agree with that, but if I did, that's how I would fix it.

I also find the argument of "The mage can always use a gun, too," to be fatally flawed. The mage won't have even close to the dice pool of a sammie.

Spellcasting shouldn't be the "I win" button it is in some games, but a standard mage should be able to use combat spells as a viable offensive option.

For the record, I'm not a big fan of the Drain=Force idea either. I just disagree with the idea that combat spells must be a pound-for-pound match for firearms when fighting meatside or else things are unbalanced. After all, magic and spell casting is rather good even without all the firepower. Further, direct spells have their own unique properties that make them quite useful vs. targets with immunity to normal weapons, regeneration or heavy armor even before you factor in their raw damage potential-- I'd bet that Mana Bolt and Slay spells would still see some use as niche items even if their damage code were effectively lowered a point or two.

Anyway, despite the above, I'm not actually in a big rush to nerf mages or even combat spells. I feel like I have a good enough handle on the rules that I can create situations where Magicians aren't always the best answer to everything, and that's really about all I care about, even if I do often suspect that Magicians may very well be the "best" archetype from a power gaming point of view. I think that's because when all is said and done, SR4 is a relatively small scale game, and so mechanics that allow you to push all your chips into the middle can become very powerful. Drain is dangerous, after all, but if taking some drain can prevent a few guys from shooting at you, I say sling some mojo and pop an aspirin. If you get enough of them in the first go it may not really matter how much you have left in the tank anyway.

I would not go that far... our Mage, who is a fairly Balls to the Wall Combat Mage (Initiate Grade 5, Magic 6) is hell on wheels with his spellcasting, but when he does choose to use that Machine Pistol of his, he throws 21 Dice (Automatics Skill at 4, including the Rating 4 Tacnet Bonus)... that is more than our Street Sam (20 Dice, though he has all the weapon Skills at 3) or the Hacker (19 Dice, The Firearms Group at 2)... he rarely uses it, but he is pretty lethal when he does...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Your teams mage has agility 13?

Well, after smart link and a specialization it's cut down to 9 agility, which is actually surprisingly doable with the Restricted Gear quality or simply acquiring high rating Muscle Toners while in play, something that's certainly not outside the realm of possibility for a runner who's had enough experience to hit grade 5. If you're going to give up a point of essence to boost one stat through the roof Agility is a pretty good choice given how many tests it governs.

Ok,

Now while I dont think there is anything wrong with mages at the moment if and its a big if the GM isnt letting you get away with everything and then some (my GM wouldnt let me use mental manipulations without consequence). I do think maybe something would help the mundanes.

How about a biofiber modification for armour.

Biofiber armour modification

Capacity 5
Rating 1 - 2
Cost R x 1000
Avaliablity 10R

Biofiber implants weave small flexible pads of Biofiber contained within a triple walled containment system throught the clothing or armour. Maintenace costs are R x 100 per month.


I have two options for how this could work

1) As the biofiber implants effectivly mask small parts of the targets aura the rating should be used as a negative modifier to casting as per targeting rules for direct spells (indirect would be unaffected)

2) Biofiber implants add their rating to the dice pool for resisting spells directed at the wearer as they absorb some of the mana themselves.



What do you think?

I think you might be able to make an algal version of that lily that generates a background count and add that into a pack you put in armor. But I don't think what you're proposing would work at all. The aura wouldn't be enough to mask that of the person under it.

Thats why one suggestion was a modifier like a visibility modifer, it wont shroud you but patches of other stuff between you and the casting mage might just tip the balance if you use cover as well. Plus it fits in with the current modifiers so wouldnt be to much of a departure from the current rules set.

I just don't see it adding enough of a 'disturbance' to qualify as cover, or even to break up the outline of the targets aura

well from the post i assumed no spec, but your right about the smartlink so its only 11 agility.

I see your point, but a level of disbelief is required for the magic rules anyway, if holding up a sheet of biofiber shields you from astral vision (they can see the biofiber but not you behind it) then partial bits might partially shield you. No real difference then hiding behind a desk in my mind apart from this way you carry your shield with you. Its abit far fetched and could just end up with it being an everyone who can afford it has it kind of escalation of power. But on the other hand I can see it being useful / possible.

They do have access to the mind manipulation machines which can add/alter/erase memories. If somethings in astral space it can't nuke you either, so I'm kinda good with that, and ritual magic can be replaced with cruse missiles as often as not.


Ya, its almost like trying to sneak a mage past a ward without setting it off. And you're complaining the cost of being a sam? Mages have to buy a whole new attribute, in addition to all the skills they need. Plus people want to the use guns instead of cast spells they spent all their BP to be able to do in the first place. Its like telling a sam who spent all his points on using fire arms that you think bullets are too powerful, and you'd like him to throw rocks instead. Being a decent spell caster is expensive, and as such, you can't do IT can something else and seem competent in both.

I think its more like telling the sam that all his bullets are now cheese balls and that if he really wants to do damage he needs to pick up a new skill (Hurl Insults) and stat (Charisma).

Throwing is still Agility which a sam will have in spades. Mages can use but have no direct need for Agility with regards to their primary ability.

point being, its somewhat stupid to ask a mage to spend all his points on magic, and then bitch when he's actually good and useful with it.

I dunno if the question has *ever* been, 'is the mage actually good and useful with magic?'

Nope... And to note, the team is pushing 300 Karma Each, with only One exception...

Mage: Agility 9 (Spell Augmented), Skill of 4, Smartlink +2, Specialization +2 and +4 Tacnet Bonus... That equals 21 Dice for Machine Pistols, And 19 for non-specialized Automatics Only...

Street Sam: Agility 9, Skill 3, Smartlink +2, Specialization +2, Tacnet +4... 20 Dice (But for All Firearms and Heavy Weapons/Launch Weapons that have a Specialty, and 18 for those without the Specialty)

Hacker: Agility 9: Skill 2, Specialization +2, Smartlink +2, Tacnet +4... 19 Dice (Just with the Firearms Group and the Specialized Weapons, and 17 without the Specialty)

Keep the Faith

No its a question of making magic a non option however. By increasing the drain in the fashion people are proposing magic goes from being something reliable, to something you use once, then lay down and rest for a few hours between spells.

Nope, that's an answer, not the question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The question is, 'is the mage overpowered?' For people who think so, a fix is in order, because the game exists to be *fun*. If that specific fix isn't fun for you, don't use it.