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Redcrow
post Jun 9 2010, 05:49 AM
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One of the things I have done in my own game to cut down on "artillery mage syndrome" is to use DV=F instead of DV=F/2. It may seem harsh but it will make any mages in the group stop tossing spells around so casually.
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toturi
post Jun 9 2010, 07:14 AM
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QUOTE (DBSubashi @ Jun 9 2010, 01:34 PM) *
Even street gangs will have a shaman or 2. So will ghouls. Magic and magicians are everywhere in 2072. They will be like computer specialists today. If anything is worth protecting, there will be a mage (or more!) protecting it.

Do you have any book quotes to back that up? Where does any of the SR4 books talk about how commonplace magic has become, such as you have described?

Personally I see nothing wrong with Mind Control or Mob Mind taking out the opposition. Many supposedly well-trained and well-equipped forces do not have a mage. The Renraku Red Sam leader is not a mage, the Tir Ghost leader is not a mage. Even in campaigns that have background in magic like Ghost Cartels and Dawn of the Artifacts, mages aren't everywhere. Don't they know that mages can take control of their minds? Of course, but a good mage(like a well-built PC mage) is hard to find.

If I have a mundane Big Bad, unless he is really rich (as in at least AA board member rich) or has easy access to magical talent, I won't give him any significant magical protection. My guideline is that if Ding Ramos (Ghost Cartels) does not have Magic 6 mage bodyguards, it is not likely anyone who has less resources or do not have reason to be more paranoid will.
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HappyDaze
post Jun 9 2010, 08:34 AM
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QUOTE (DBSubashi @ Jun 9 2010, 12:34 AM) *
Magic and magicians are everywhere in 2072. They will be like computer specialists today. If anything is worth protecting, there will be a mage (or more!) protecting it.

Ah, well that covers it then. If you have a problem with a spell on your buddy, then your on-call magicians will get back to you in 3-5 business days. If you've filled out the proper forms.

I say this from experience working in a government facility where computer use is almost universal yet errors and crashes happen so often that getting support is always a chore. If that's how magical support is going to be, then I can still see malicious magicians getting away with a lot.
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Runner Smurf
post Jun 9 2010, 01:08 PM
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I've had similar problems with Mind Control in the past. It's an absolute killer - it can wreck an encounter very quickly. I've seriously considered putting it on the "detente" list of my house rules - things the players and the GM agree to not do to each other in order to keep the game fun...along with snipers and neurotoxins. Mainly because as the GM, I feel like an absolute prick using those things against the players - it takes the player out of the game, and generally ruins their whole evening.

On the other hand, there may be some ways to control the spell, via minor rules changes, rather than game-world balancing. The trick is to make it slightly less of a game-wrecker, but still be very useful to the runners.
- I really liked someone's suggestion/observation that the targets/victims are free to act on their own until the mage sends the first command on his next pass. Certainly the rules don't say they are paralyzed or some such until that command. A reasonable tweak is that the victims also have a reasonable idea (bearing, approximate range) to the caster. So for that one potential pass, the mage could be in a lot of trouble. Of course, mages casting area spells without the benefit of themselves being behind cover deserve to die anyway...

- I like the idea of changing the "shake off time" to "Force - Willpower" combat turns. This will give targets a reasonable chance to effectively break loose during a combat situation. If they have magical support, you might want to restrict the use of counterspelling on those attempts, just to make the spell last at all.

- You could try tweaking the effects of the spell to be less combat useful. It's kind of a jerk move, but using the change in perspective from the caster to the target to seriously screw with their ability to shoot things. If the caster is directing _everything_ the target does, aiming at someone and pulling a trigger is going to be awfully hard to do unless the mage also shares the target's line of sight. Alternatively, make the targets use the mage's skill ratings instead of their own to do things. This still lets the spell be useful to get guards to open doors and that sort of thing, but makes it less of a combat muncher.

As for game-world balancing, what works for some people doesn't work for others. Craps tons of spirits running around with Magical Guard doesn't really jive with my understanding of the SR - mages, at least in earlier additions, were hesitant to do such things because the mage could be attacked via the link to the spirit or the focus. Then again, in your game, that may work fine.

My 2 cents. A lot of this falls under the general "holy crap, mages are scary" problem that all GMs have to deal with. But how/if to deal with that problem is a whole other flame war.

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Triggvi
post Jun 9 2010, 01:35 PM
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mind control is a crime. A big one on the order of rape. anyone can report the mage for it. people with money can put hits out on the mage or hire a team to release him from his mortal coil.

if the mage abuses the spell, start having random hitman come after him. how long with his team keep him around if the mage keeps getting contacts cdrawn up on him and the team.
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sabs
post Jun 9 2010, 01:45 PM
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Another option is to give the mind controlled person an extended resist roll (interval = 1 round) while mind controlled.
Additionally with every command they are given they get a +1 dice pool modifier to the roll. If the command is against their nature, make it a +2.

For Mob Mind: Everyone gets a roll, and when someone breaks the link it gives the rest a +1 dice modifier.

Mind Control:
Round 1:
I use mind control on BBG. F=6 DV=F/2 I roll my bazillion dice and I get 9 hits, which gets limited to 6 hits.
BBG Rolls his willpower+any applicable skills or modifiers. Lets say he's got a will of 4. (he's a boss heck, he might have a 5) 4 dice, he gets 2 hits. He's mind controlled.

Round 2:
I order BBG to shoot his bodyguard.
BBG: Gets another willpower test. This time at +3 so he's rolling 7 dice he gets 2 hits again, for a total of 4. He's mind controlled still, and he shoots his bodyguard.

Round 3:
I order BBG to shoot himself in the head.
BBG: 3rd willpower test. This time he's rolling 11 dice. He gets 3 or 4 successes. He's not mind controlled and he insteads shoots at the mage.

You could always just make it a flat extended test. But then on average you're bad guy is going to be mind controlled for 6 rounds. Which is an eternity.
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TommyTwoToes
post Jun 9 2010, 01:46 PM
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QUOTE (Wandering One @ Jun 8 2010, 04:06 PM) *
BWAHAHAHAHAHA, I *really* like this.

As to background count, that should be a novelty, not a constant. Yeah, okay, running battle in a church with a prominant pastor that packs the halls, sure. Recent bloodsport fight, sure, if we're talking about in the ring where the emotion was concentrated at. Your average nightclub/factory/corp grounds/gang clubhouse? No.



We used to play with Bacground count as being fairly rare. However after reading Ghost Cartels, it seemed as though the assumptions in there were that low level count is pretty common.

Warehouse/dockyard with no plants, a little polution, no residents --> gets a little BC.

But I digress.. Drones are immune to Mind Control, fairly resistant to illusions and can geek the mage just fine.
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Traul
post Jun 9 2010, 03:12 PM
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QUOTE (Runner Smurf @ Jun 9 2010, 03:08 PM) *
- You could try tweaking the effects of the spell to be less combat useful. It's kind of a jerk move, but using the change in perspective from the caster to the target to seriously screw with their ability to shoot things. If the caster is directing _everything_ the target does, aiming at someone and pulling a trigger is going to be awfully hard to do unless the mage also shares the target's line of sight. Alternatively, make the targets use the mage's skill ratings instead of their own to do things. This still lets the spell be useful to get guards to open doors and that sort of thing, but makes it less of a combat muncher.


That is Control Actions you are talking about, not Control Thoughts. With Control Thoughts, the Mage just gives orders instead of micromanaging every single move.
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Warlordtheft
post Jun 9 2010, 03:27 PM
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QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Jun 8 2010, 07:19 PM) *
If you assert that they are balanced, I'd love to know how. It's entirely possible that I have missed the implications of something in the rules.

tldr; "there are plenty of ways to keep it from being a gamebreaker" ...like what? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


Mind Control Prevention/balancing techniques:
1. Counterspelling
2. The victim knows it happened
3. Caster has to command the victim (a simple action, iirc, afb)
4. Drones
5. Geek the mage
6. Spread out the mooks so they are not all within a 6 meter radius.
7. Victims allies have nonleatheal methods to control him
8. Have an opposing mage use it on the team once in a while.
9. LOS-use it and grenades.
10. LOS+Smartguns---use it to shoot around corners
11. Spirit attacks mage in CC.

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imperialus
post Jun 9 2010, 03:48 PM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Jun 9 2010, 01:14 AM) *
Do you have any book quotes to back that up? Where does any of the SR4 books talk about how commonplace magic has become, such as you have described?

Personally I see nothing wrong with Mind Control or Mob Mind taking out the opposition. Many supposedly well-trained and well-equipped forces do not have a mage. The Renraku Red Sam leader is not a mage, the Tir Ghost leader is not a mage. Even in campaigns that have background in magic like Ghost Cartels and Dawn of the Artifacts, mages aren't everywhere. Don't they know that mages can take control of their minds? Of course, but a good mage(like a well-built PC mage) is hard to find.

If I have a mundane Big Bad, unless he is really rich (as in at least AA board member rich) or has easy access to magical talent, I won't give him any significant magical protection. My guideline is that if Ding Ramos (Ghost Cartels) does not have Magic 6 mage bodyguards, it is not likely anyone who has less resources or do not have reason to be more paranoid will.


Yeah, 90% of magical security might involve having a security mage pop by once a month to make sure the force 2-3 wards are still in place around the CEO's office or other critical rooms. If the wards get breached he'll fire off a spirit to check it out and update the physical security to warn them that there is a mage involved.

Lets think this through for a moment. 1% isn't that low a number in the scheme of things, but remember that one percent covers everyone with magical talent. It doesn't matter if they're an adept, or if they're a mage with so little ability they are limited to using their index finger as a cigarette lighter. Now you narrow it down further by finding mages who are skilled in security work and don't focus their talents on something else, either because their totem forbids it or they are more interested in research, or medicine or the military or whatever.

At the end of the day lets say 20% of awakened individuals are mages with a magic rating of at least 3. Now lets say 20% of that number are actually interested in magical security (the number is a bit high because magical security is a lucrative career). So out of every 100 awakened, (or 1000 total pop) we have 20 competent mages. Out of every 100 competent mages (or 20,000 total pop) we have 20 competent security mages. Now the numbers start looking a lot smaller.
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Saint Sithney
post Jun 9 2010, 04:17 PM
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QUOTE (imperialus @ Jun 9 2010, 08:48 AM) *
At the end of the day lets say 20% of awakened individuals are mages with a magic rating of at least 3. Now lets say 20% of that number are actually interested in magical security (the number is a bit high because magical security is a lucrative career). So out of every 100 awakened, (or 1000 total pop) we have 20 competent mages. Out of every 100 competent mages (or 20,000 total pop) we have 20 competent security mages. Now the numbers start looking a lot smaller.


20 competent security mages in 20,000 population leaves about 8000 security mages in Seattle alone.

The current number of active police officers in RL Seattle today is ~1500. Scaling for population growth, that still leaves Sec mages in 2070 as considerably more common than police are today.
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sabs
post Jun 9 2010, 04:19 PM
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btw if we're saying that 1% of the population is awakaned.

World Population: 7 Billion
World Awakened Population: 70 M
World Mage Population: 14 M
World Mage Security Population: 2.8 M

That's world population.

To put it in perspective:
Japan Population: 143 Million
Japan Awakaned Population: 1.43 M
Japan Mage Population: 286,000
Japan Mage Security Population: 57,200

Or Seattle
Seattle Total Population: 5 Million
Seattle Awakened Population: 500,000
Seattle Mage Population: 10,000
Seattle Mage Security Population: 2000 (Including Shadowrunners)

That's not insignificant, but it's not really huge either.

Security Mages per 100,000 Population:
40
Doctors per 100,000 Population in America:
271

Okay that was a bit long winded. But it gives you a decent feel for how many Mages are out in the world.

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sabs
post Jun 9 2010, 04:24 PM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jun 9 2010, 05:17 PM) *
20 competent security mages in 20,000 population leaves about 8000 security mages in Seattle alone.

The current number of active police officers in RL Seattle today is ~1500. Scaling for population growth, that still leaves Sec mages in 2070 as considerably more common than police are today.


Like I pointed out in my post:
1% of 20,000 is 200
20% of that is: 40
20% of that is: 8

So it's actually 8 out of 20,000
8000/20 = x/8
x=8000*8/20
x=3200

Which is about twice as many mages as there are cops today.

I think that means that some of our assumptions are wrong.

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Saint Sithney
post Jun 9 2010, 04:29 PM
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QUOTE (sabs @ Jun 9 2010, 09:24 AM) *
I think that means that some of our assumptions are wrong.


For sure.
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imperialus
post Jun 9 2010, 05:19 PM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jun 9 2010, 10:29 AM) *
For sure.

Agreed. Probably my bad. 20% choosing a sec career is likely too high.
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Wandering One
post Jun 9 2010, 05:19 PM
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If it's 20% interested in security, I think my team at one point killed... well... ALL of them.
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Orcus Blackweath...
post Jun 9 2010, 05:23 PM
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Obviously at the end of the day, statistics are just lying with back up. As a GM, you need to do whatever to make your game continue to be fun for the group. RAW is important only as a means of having everyone playing agree with how things work. If after all of this you feel that you have been playing the competition correctly, and Mind Control is still breaking your game, then you need to do whatever you feel is appropriate to make things work. IF that means there is a corp mage around every corner, then feel free to do that in your game. As long as everyone in your game is having fun, go for it. The biggest issue is getting the players to buy into your world. As a last resort, discuss how you feel the spell is breaking the game, and ask the players for suggestions on how to keep things fair for all involved.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 10 2010, 02:11 AM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Jun 9 2010, 12:14 AM) *
Do you have any book quotes to back that up? Where does any of the SR4 books talk about how commonplace magic has become, such as you have described?



Well, at 1% of the Population, Magically Awakened are more numerous than Doctors are today... That qualifies as "Everywhere" in my books... Regardless of whether or not they are Uber or not... Besides, How many of those have spirits that they control?

Just Sayin...

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Red-ROM
post Jun 10 2010, 02:22 AM
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Try Drones. Mages don't like drones.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 10 2010, 02:25 AM
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QUOTE (Red-ROM @ Jun 9 2010, 07:22 PM) *
Try Drones. Mages don't like drones.


Indeed they don't... I love my Drones...

Keep the Faith
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toturi
post Jun 10 2010, 03:32 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 10 2010, 10:11 AM) *
Well, at 1% of the Population, Magically Awakened are more numerous than Doctors are today... That qualifies as "Everywhere" in my books... Regardless of whether or not they are Uber or not... Besides, How many of those have spirits that they control?

Just Sayin...

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QUOTE (DBSubashi @ Jun 9 2010, 01:34 PM) *
Even street gangs will have a shaman or 2. So will ghouls. Magic and magicians are everywhere in 2072. They will be like computer specialists today. If anything is worth protecting, there will be a mage (or more!) protecting it.

Hence my question whether magic is as pervasive as he had described. Awakened are not uncommon, yes. But is magic and are magicians everywhere?
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Cube
post Jun 10 2010, 06:29 AM
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Actually, that "1% Of the Population is Awakened" thing?

That applies to anyone with any sort of magical talent.

This includes:
  • Mages
  • Adepts
  • Mystic Adepts
  • Drakes
  • Anyone infected with HMHVV.
  • Shapeshifters
  • Free Spirits (if you count them as part of the population)
  • Anyone with the Astral Sight quality.
  • Anyone with the Spell or Spirit Knack Quality.


However, most powerful Mages tend to be drawn to Corporate Security or Shadowrunning. They're the most lucrative fields in the Arcane Industry, after all.
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toturi
post Jun 10 2010, 06:42 AM
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QUOTE (Cube @ Jun 10 2010, 02:29 PM) *
However, most powerful Mages tend to be drawn to Corporate Security or Shadowrunning. They're the most lucrative fields in the Arcane Industry, after all.
We do not know how the magical and associated industries' economic model look like (or at least I have not read anything much about it). Certainly corpsec and other mage runners are likely to be the ones the PCs come into contact the most.

If I were to venture a guess, the most powerful mages would tend to be drawn towards magical research as well as management.
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Emy
post Jun 10 2010, 06:45 AM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Jun 10 2010, 12:42 AM) *
We do not know how the magical and associated industries' economic model look like (or at least I have not read anything much about it). Certainly corpsec and other mage runners are likely to be the ones the PCs come into contact the most.

If I were to venture a guess, the most powerful mages would tend to be drawn towards magical research as well as management.


Yeah. From what I remember, places like MIT(&T) are thriving.
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Blade
post Jun 10 2010, 08:08 AM
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"1% of the population is Awakened" doesn't mean that 1% of Seattle (or any other Sprawl) is Awakened ; it's probably much more than that.
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