![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
![]()
Post
#26
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 ![]() |
Tell me there's more adept powers than spells. Tell me you can easily boost core abilities with adept powers better than with Wares. These are not the only criteria for success in the Sixth World. Things like Mentor bonuses and Adept Centering don't have a mundane parallel and Adept Centering is an awful, awful good ability. Same deal with Item Attunement. Likewise some bits of cyber and bioware aren't actually all that expensive essence wise and can be combined with Magic abilities to great effect. For example, you're just not going to create a character that can out-Face a bio-Adept short of running with SURGE and getting Glamour. Even then, the Adept can come out on top by adding in a dash of Improved Ability. But then, I guess you already know that, judging from this comment: QUOTE 1. cyber-adept. The physical adept power is cheap to take, and worth taking exclusively to raise your firearms skill. Other than that, this archetype is basically a street samurai with more growth potential than other street samuria, because he can raise his magic attribute in-game via initiation. This is kind of horrible RP. The first role isn't really a physical adept in my mind, just a twink. Comments like this are completely and utterly subjective. There's multiple paths to power in the Shadowrun world and you took one of the paths that happens to work very well, discarded it and then said the system doesn't work. I'd much rather you not throw around rhetoric like "Objectively prove me wrong," when such comments make up the crux of your initial argument. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#27
|
|
Immortal Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 ![]() |
The existence of Improved Ability, alone, is the end-all be-all that makes adepts superior. The problem is that with an adept, you have to specialize if you really want to be competitive from start to finish, and some specializations are far better than others. No one's going to come close to challenging an adept specialized in Unarmed Combat, for instance. There's also concepts like the Social Adept, but you're clearly more interested in their physical abilities.
That said, I prefer building cyberware-oriented characters over adepts because I prefer their style and like being more of a generalist. But physically-oriented adepts are hardly subpar or worthless. They just need a niche. If you try making one who's just as good at gunslinging, swordplaying, infiltrating, and spying, well... you are going to be sorely disappointed compared to other character types. But hey, that's your fault for not taking advantage of the adept's strengths. And as others have said, this comparison only holds weight during character creation and the earliest stages of a campaign. In any long-running campaign where the Karma is flowing freely, adepts quickly overtake just about anyone short of other magicians as far as being a generalist and all around badass goes. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#28
|
|
Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 ![]() |
Combat sense 6, improved ability - dodge 3, improved reflexes 1 for powers with reflexes 6, dodge 6 and magic 6 gives you 22 base dice to dodge, or 31 for a full dodge, and once initiated, it becomes even more extreme. This can be done using 100 BP plus 60 Karma (start with reaction and magic at 5 and raise them through karma) or 150 BP. Edit: Added wrong. Yup, which is why I said in certain areas like dodging they can rock. I did not go that far with my troll boxer character but rolling 12 dice on a dodge without it being a full dodge even was awesome. A large number of shots just missed so I didn't even have to roll my large number of soak dice. They have there rolls so like I said I don't think they are too unbalanced. I do think some things cost too much(wall running is a prime example) and I wish they'd have a reason not to be a cyber/adept. While it wasn't iron cast especially not for the power gamers who worked the system, it used to be if you were an adept if you took cyber it was to cover the things magic could not handle.(enhanced attributes have always sucked for adepts for some reason, not as bad comparatively as now though) Limb replacement, smartgun links things like that. In 4e, you go to it just because it is cheaper and better at most enhancement and you go to magic for the things tech can't handle like combat sense, killing hands etc. But since you took the path of magic I think it should be the previous edition way or what they setting wise shot for, as an adept magic should handle all you enhancements except for things that magic just can't do. Also in previous edition if you were magically active you were worse in the matrix and maybe rigging, I can't remember on that the driving rules sucked just as much back then as they do now so we never played riggers. I think it was +2 to all TNs in the matirx, which was a huge penalty. It did something important it separated magic types so magic types weren't just as good as you at X activity but they also had magic. I'd bring that back and sensitive system I'd give that for no points to all magically active types but have it also effect bioware and geneware. Things like synaptic accelerator are still more essence friendly, but it wont be by an absurd margin anymore. It might sound like a lot, but most of that is to help SR feel more like SR to me than it does now. 4e really moved away from many of the SR concepts that I loved. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#29
|
|
Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 10-June 10 Member No.: 18,691 ![]() |
The existence of Improved Ability, alone, is the end-all be-all that makes adepts superior. The problem is that with an adept, you have to specialize if you really want to be competitive from start to finish, and some specializations are far better than others. No one's going to come close to challenging an adept specialized in Unarmed Combat, for instance. There's also concepts like the Social Adept, but you're clearly more interested in their physical abilities. That said, I prefer building cyberware-oriented characters over adepts because I prefer their style and like being more of a generalist. But physically-oriented adepts are hardly subpar or worthless. They just need a niche. If you try making one who's just as good at gunslinging, swordplaying, infiltrating, and spying, well... you are going to be sorely disappointed compared to other character types. But hey, that's your fault for not taking advantage of the adept's strengths. And as others have said, this comparison only holds weight during character creation and the earliest stages of a campaign. In any long-running campaign where the Karma is flowing freely, adepts quickly overtake just about anyone short of other magicians as far as being a generalist and all around badass goes. i'll have to disagree with the doc here, in 4th edition, improved ability is one of the less nifty powers that adepts have, imo. it's been oft-said that shadowrun is a game of glass cannons - characters who have been optimized usually don't need more dice, whoever moves first is mostly likely to make the kill. plus you only get like 2 extra dice due to the augmented skill maximums, as opposed to sr3 where it wasn't unusual for an adept to be throwing twice the number of dice in his area of expertise as the samurai. that said, adepts can do a lot of cool things that sammies can't - being able to laugh off some of the most commonly abused spirit powers is just one of their unique talents, one that no samurai can replicate (magic resistance only works on spells, and astral hazing is a rather suicidal quality to take). |
|
|
![]()
Post
#30
|
|
Prime Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,803 Joined: 3-February 08 From: Finland Member No.: 15,628 ![]() |
On the one hand, I respect that you took the time to think (and write) out an argument, and I'm glad you've obviously put some thought and effort into it. What's more, possession is a new twist on a way to fix the problem, so kudos for that. On the other hand, I think you're terribly, fundamentally, wrong about adepts sucking, being awful, being worse than anyone else, etc, etc, etc. So...well...yeah. Good argument method, flawed core argument. Sorry you think they don't work. Have a good one. Gotta agree with Critias on this, it doesn't matter how good an well though out your post/idea is when your core argument is just plain wrong. For excampe show me character who isn't an adept that can jump out of the 10:th floor of a building and consistantly take no damage from that fall or do that movie trick of jumping from one building to the building on other side of the street. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#31
|
|
Uncle Fisty ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 ![]() |
And then there's the Infusion metamagic. It's good to boost up a power in a pinch. Even better if you want to take say a range of low level Improved Ability powers in different skills, then boost the one you need. It's not the fastest thing in the world, and it certainly isn't free. But it can be used to make an adept a bit more well rounded, if you build them for that. And it can do it better than Skillwires with a few levels of initiation.
There are definitely things an adept can do that mundanes can't. There are things mages can do that adepts can't, but adepts weren't made to trump mages. They're more of a middle ground. Killing Hands +Elemental Attack + Critical Strike can do some interesting things. Traceless Walk + Improved Ability (Infiltration) Commanding Voice along with False Signature, Facial Sculpt and Impr. Ability (Disguise) Improved Ability (Weapon type) + Weapon Focus + Attunement Attune to an animal type, share Improved Unarmed, Critical Strike + Elemental Attack, then give the animal the power. Yes cyber can give some better stat bonuses to skills and attributes for cheaper. But you're also not factoring in things like metamagics and foci. A cyber-Chameleon can change his voice, his eyes, even his face, but not his aura. No one else has the ability to give an animal like a bird +4 unarmed, +4 Critical Strike, and an electrical attack. Successful adepts plan. As Doc/Scratch said, cyber lets you spread out a bit more (enhanced articulation+muscle toner+Reflex Recorder). Personally I don't get why people get upset about adding cyber to something (like a mage or adept) and it being better than before. That's the point of augmentations. But a straight out adept is far from inferior IMO. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#32
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,473 Joined: 24-May 10 From: Beijing Member No.: 18,611 ![]() |
This all goes back to that gamer study that was referenced in another thread.
The Thinkers don't like that they can't get an "optimum build" out of a physical adept vs. other types. The Powergamers worry that they might not be as effective as other types. The StoryTellers only want to make sure they can contribute to the story. The CharacterActors just hope they have an interesting and consistent character concept. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#33
|
|
Immortal Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 ![]() |
Funny. I'm pretty sure I count as a Thinker, Storyteller, and Character Actor, yet I like adepts just fine across the board. Probably a Power Gamer, too, but not by that definition.
Quick example off the top of my head:
Notable Attributes: Charisma 5, Edge 6, Magic 5. Active Skills: Influence Skill Group 4, Intimidation 4, Pistols 4, Stealth Skill Group 4, Dodge 4, Perception 4 Powers: Kinesics 3, Voice Control, Facial Sculpt 3, Melanin Control, Commanding Voice, Linguistics, Enthralling Performance (Oration), Multi-Tasking, Eidetic Sense Memory Equipment: Commlink (System 5 and Response 5), Empathy Software 5, Glasses and Contacts with the works, Ear Buds with the works. Adepts are fine, especially Social and Unarmed Adepts. They have their niches, and they handle those niches either competently or, as exemplified above, too well. And with particularly creative players, lots of other options open up that makes them unique and interesting compared to the mundane options simply because those mundanes don't have access (at least not easily if at all) to what certain powers can do. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#34
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 558 Joined: 23-June 10 Member No.: 18,749 ![]() |
Many of you seem to be very poor at reading. You have stated that social adepts are awesome. I agreed with this toward the beginning of my original post. In fact, it's the one role I said an adept could fill probably better than anyone else.
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#35
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 558 Joined: 23-June 10 Member No.: 18,749 ![]() |
Kind of surprised no one's mentioned the obvious problem: inhabitation kills the host. What you end up with is not a dude walking around with a spirit in his head (that would be possession), but a body whose original soul has been annihilated and replaced with a spirit. Two completely different animals, and outside of super-ultra-mega-batshit insane cults, I really can't see you finding a whole lot of "willing adept" volunteers. The character is essentially a free spirit. I guess I could've been more explicit about that. No, there wouldn't be many willing volunteers. It should be rare. The build point costs reflects this. The short story of Riven, I thought, also made this clear. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#36
|
|
Prime Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,803 Joined: 3-February 08 From: Finland Member No.: 15,628 ![]() |
Many of you seem to be very poor at reading. You have stated that social adepts are awesome. I agreed with this toward the beginning of my original post. In fact, it's the one role I said an adept could fill probably better than anyone else. Not that your that much better yourself, as you seem to be ingnoring everythink thats not social adept in many post pointing out thinks adepts are really good at. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#37
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 558 Joined: 23-June 10 Member No.: 18,749 ![]() |
Not that your that much better yourself, as you seem to be ingnoring everythink thats not social adept in many post pointing out thinks adepts are really good at. I didn't feel the need to reply to most of them, because they all ran into the problem of the cyber-adept. An adept who doesn't take Wares is just not going to be as good under RAW as one who does. Period. Some people have brought up athletics-adepts. Jumping from roof tops, etc. Neat. A cyber-adept is still better at this than an unWared adept. Others have brought up the infinite growth potential of an adept. That's stellar. I mentioned this in the same sentence as I mentioned cyber-adepts. They're just a street samurai with more growth potential due to initiating with karma in-game. Even a social adept would be a fool not to take the Pheromones Ware. It's not that I have a problem with Wares in general. I've made a lot of chrome-boys. I've also made a lot of chrome-boy adepts. The problem is, I think that playing a pure adept without Wares should be a rewarding experience, and not one you have to sacrifice overly much for. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#38
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,899 Joined: 29-October 09 From: Leiden, the Netherlands Member No.: 17,814 ![]() |
The following is a list of reasons why physical adepts suck: 1. Qualities in SR4 steal a physical adepts thunder. Many of the adept powers can simply be taken as positive qualities instead, and its cheaper, some examples: Exceptional Attribute(20BP, or 2 magic points for an adept) and Astral Sight(5bp, or 1 magic point for an adept) Improved Physical Attribute is 1 power point for adepts, and effectively 30BP through qualities+buying the allowed (not given!) additional point. Astral Sight at 5bp is a) not allowed for anyone with any other Awakened quality, b) extremely fragile; lose a point of Essence and it's gone forever. c) Without any other Awakened abilities, it mostly puts you at risk from spirits; it gives you no real ability to handle them. 2. Physical adepts severely lack variety in adept powers. There's only 68 adept powers total in the core books, and most of them are rather useless. 19 in SR4 core manual. 43 in Street Magic. 6 in Digital Grimoire. Street Magic alone has 73 unique spells, and that's only if you don't count the different ranges possible as different spells.(Touch, LOS, Area) There's many more spells in the SR4 core manual and Digitial Grimoire that I haven't bothered counting. I'm guessing it's roughly double this number. Fair enough. But that list wasn't meant to be exhaustive, just a list to start from, just like the spell list isn't meant to be exhaustive. For example, in my campaign there's an NPC adept who's developed an adept power to stay young forever. Not so relevant in combat, but for long-term RP, it's an important alternative to leonization. 3. Attributes are more easily and cheaply bought via Wares than they are with adept powers. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Augmentations are supposed to be the quick and dirty road to power. "Pure" adepts aren't a goal of game design; they're a viable choice, but not meant to be the only viable choice. You can argue that physical adepts fill unique niches in the shadowrun team, that no one else could fill. You'd be wrong, for the most part. Physical adept roles: 1. cyber-adept. The physical adept power is cheap to take, and worth taking exclusively to raise your firearms skill. Other than that, this archetype is basically a street samurai with more growth potential than other street samurai, because he can raise his magic attribute in-game via initiation. This is kind of horrible RP. I don't really see what's horrible about that. It's different from all-mundane street sams, it has style, and it isn't too much better or worse at it. 2. stealth adept. Physical adepts can be quite good stealthers, however, a magician with the right spells, skills, and foci can serve in this role more than twice as effectively. Adepts have a far easier time with astral barriers, and always-on powers that don't require rolls and risk of drain are pretty neat if a run turns sour. A magician that only rolls well might be slightly better, but reactivating your foci and spells every time you have to sneak past an astral barrier will really slow you down. 3. face. The face of a shadowrun team. Takes care of the social interactions. A physical adept can fill this role probably better than anyone else. A magician could do it rather well with the right spells, and no morals about getting inside someone elses head. But a physical adept will fall into this role quite nicely. Spellcasting is noticeable; 6-Force is the threshold. This means that high-powered mind manipulation is going to draw attention. It's visible on cameras; no sensitive employee should be left unmonitored. I personally think a face needs to be far more subtle than that, and adepts can be much smoother than magicians. Their powers can be fairly well-hidden, and people often underestimate how useful looking normal can be to a face. 4. mystic adepts. This isn't even a pure physical adept. Most mystic adepts will take 4-5 points in adept powers, and purchase a force 3-4 power foci to make up for the magic loss. This, along with sustaining foci to keep the mystic adept buffed with things like increased reflexes, are used to make some pretty powerful characters. If your GM actually lets you overcast, this character is a god. The actual adept powers that this character takes only account for a small portion of this characters massive power. Mystic adepts, in my opinion, should be forced to take aspected magic so that they lose effectiveness for some spells/abilities. But that's a whole other topic. I've always thought mystical adepts were a bit wonky. I don't like not having astral projection as a standard power; what kind of half-trained magician does that make you? Mystic adepts have a hard time excelling in anything particular. They're good as all-purpose runners though. The first role isn't really a physical adept in my mind, just a twink. The second role is superseded by magicians. The fourth role isn't even a physical adept, and what adept powers it does take are actually rather secondary to its massive magic/foci/conjuring power. Leaving only the third role for a physical adept to excel in. Basically, physical adepts are powerful as long as they're magicians or street samurai. It's a bit like saying the most beautiful parts of Kansas are in Missouri. So basically, I disagree with all the above points you made. Adepts aren't as extremely versatile as magicians, and don't quite have the range. They're more subtle and faster though, and they don't get tired as fast. Some of your solutions still have their uses though; 1. Introducing more adept powers. Perhaps stealing straight from the critter powers & spirit powers list. You can make some fun and interesting characters doing this. It adds a lot of variety and flavor. It's cool to have an unarmed adept with energy aura(this too can be done by a mystic adept.) More different powers is nice; they don't have to be more powerful, but variety is good. 2. Unwared adepts: Making adept powers cost half their RAW value on the condition that the adept remain un-enhanced by Wares I don't think Essence Virginity needs to be so hardwired into the game system. Some adept powers are a bit overcosted, and that should be fixed, but I don't think any special bonus should be given for not augmenting. I don't think we need clear "class boundaries" in SR. I rather like bio-adepts as a character type. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#39
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 558 Joined: 23-June 10 Member No.: 18,749 ![]() |
I don't think Essence Virginity needs to be so hardwired into the game system. Some adept powers are a bit overcosted, and that should be fixed, but I don't think any special bonus should be given for not augmenting. I don't think we need clear "class boundaries" in SR. I rather like bio-adepts as a character type. I first want to say that I appreciated your entire post. You made fair points pretty much everywhere. Concerning essence virginity: The problem with not hardwiring it into the game, the problem with simply cutting the cost of Adept powers, is that the cyber-adept sees the same increase. You've only worked to widen the gap between the Adept-street-sam and the mundane-street-sam, without giving any incentive at all to remain "pure", one way or the other. Remaining pure may be a goal in itself for some characters, and I think they should be in some way rewarded. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#40
|
|
Immortal Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 ![]() |
I didn't feel the need to reply to most of them, because they all ran into the problem of the cyber-adept. An adept who doesn't take Wares is just not going to be as good under RAW as one who does. Period. Wait, that's your big problem? That mixing and matching from more than one "area" of abilities creates a stronger overall character? Well, uhm, duh? Just reverse your examples and you'll see exactly what I mean by that 'duh.' A street samurai will be made stronger by adding adept powers and/or spells. A hacker will be made stronger by adding adept powers and/or spells. A face will be made stronger by adding adept powers and/or spells. Are mages suddenly weak since they can benefit significantly from cyberware, too? Things like Cybereyes, Cerebral Boosters, and Pain Editors can do a lot for them. That's a really... yeah, it actually is a really weak argument. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#41
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 30-July 09 From: Charlotte, NC Member No.: 17,452 ![]() |
More adept powers are always welcome!
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#42
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 ![]() |
Yeah, that's why I kinda got my undies in a bunch over the "Prove me wrong," thing. His problem is largely a thematic one, since adepts are more than fine as long as you don't consider essence a sacred cow. Whether there is a "Ware problem" is ultimately a matter of opinion and perspective. Which, you know, is fine, but it says more about what a person thinks of what the Shadowrun setting should be than it says anything about what Adepts actually are capable of. Personally, I tend to discount the idea that cyberware makes your character automatically less of an adept thematically. For example, I've ran an infiltrator Adept with some fairly heavy 'ware, but he had a Mentor Spirit (Rat), a Geas and eventually attuned himself to a rat swarm in Redmond. With only 3 Magic I guess you could call him a chrome boy, but he sure as hell played like an adept. Whereas I've seen pure Adepts that treated the whole experience as a quick way to 4 initiative passes and left it at that. Still, given SR history and precedent, I do see why some people miss the magic vs. tech vibe from earlier editions, even if I personally never really cared for it. Ultimately it's an agree to disagree thing, at least after the SR4A tweaks made going pure a bit more reasonable, anyway.
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#43
|
|
The Dragon Never Sleeps ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 ![]() |
I miss the burned out mage archetype.
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#44
|
|
Freelance Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 ![]() |
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#45
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 558 Joined: 23-June 10 Member No.: 18,749 ![]() |
Annnnnd, cut. Yeah. This shows you're just not worth talking to, at least on this subject. I wouldn't have said it if it weren't true. I addressed social adepts in the original post. Said they were awesome. If people had bothered to read it, they wouldn't have been trying to give me sweet social adept templates. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#46
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 558 Joined: 23-June 10 Member No.: 18,749 ![]() |
Yeah, that's why I kinda got my undies in a bunch over the "Prove me wrong," thing. His problem is largely a thematic one, since adepts are more than fine as long as you don't consider essence a sacred cow. Whether there is a "Ware problem" is ultimately a matter of opinion and perspective. Which, you know, is fine, but it says more about what a person thinks of what the Shadowrun setting should be than it says anything about what Adepts actually are capable of. Personally, I tend to discount the idea that cyberware makes your character automatically less of an adept thematically. For example, I've ran an infiltrator Adept with some fairly heavy 'ware, but he had a Mentor Spirit (Rat), a Geas and eventually attuned himself to a rat swarm in Redmond. With only 3 Magic I guess you could call him a chrome boy, but he sure as hell played like an adept. Whereas I've seen pure Adepts that treated the whole experience as a quick way to 4 initiative passes and left it at that. Still, given SR history and precedent, I do see why some people miss the magic vs. tech vibe from earlier editions, even if I personally never really cared for it. Ultimately it's an agree to disagree thing, at least after the SR4A tweaks made going pure a bit more reasonable, anyway. All fair, reasonable points. Thanks. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#47
|
|
Freelance Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 ![]() |
And that's fine. I wouldn't have said you weren't worth talking to, if that also wasn't true. You came in here with your mind made up, you're offering fixes to problems not everyone agrees with, and -- most recently -- you're being a dick about it.
So why bother? You see a problem, you made up a fix to it, and you're going to condescend towards anyone that doesn't agree with you. What's the point in talking to someone like that? |
|
|
![]()
Post
#48
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 558 Joined: 23-June 10 Member No.: 18,749 ![]() |
And that's fine. I wouldn't have said you weren't worth talking to, if that also wasn't true. You came in here with your mind made up, you're offering fixes to problems not everyone agrees with, and -- most recently -- you're being a dick about it. So why bother? You see a problem, you made up a fix to it, and you're going to condescend towards anyone that doesn't agree with you. What's the point in talking to someone like that? I'm not condescending to people who don't agree with me. Many of their arguments are legit, and I've said so. I am however very condescending toward people who aren't capable of reading. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#49
|
|
Uncle Fisty ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 ![]() |
I believe the point Crit is attempting to make is that you seem to be picking your arguements, while making blanket statements. Your statement was because of people using social adepts as an example, where you've already addressed that. On the other hand, you've said nothing of the other examples cited having nothing to do with social adepts.
I'd have to go with Whipstitch, in that it's more of a personal preference/flavor thing, which is fine. If that's how you prefer your game, more power to you. But it's a personal thing, not a game flaw. Of course an adept that takes augments is going to get a bit more of an edge. That's why you get augmentations. Bioware was made specifically to be more essence friendly, which naturally lends its self to the awakened. As adepts benefit more from attribute and skill boosts than a mage, they're going to see it used more often. As was pointed out, a mage can also get great benefits from augmentation. A hermetic with Cerebral Boosters for example is going to be able to sling high force spells all day. They can also duplicate it with a very simple sustained spell. It's not just adepts who get boosts from augmentations. That's the point. No one's trying to go after you, they just disagree with your arguement that it's fundamentally flawed in the system. You take a datajack as an adept, you can lose your Traceless Walk, or more likely, your potential ability to get it without dumping a crap ton of karma into it. There are a number of adept abilites that cyber simply cannot reproduce, and much fewer that cyber can do that magic can't. It's that old arguement again. That doesn't mean that you can't have a problem with it as a matter of taste or style. If you do, just dictate that all the awakened have the Sensitive System quality, as has been said before. The fluff certainly supports that, and more recent incarnations of SR have gone away from that somewhat. But without that, or an IC reason, there are few reasons not to get augmentations. Again, that's the point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
|
|
![]()
Post
#50
|
|
Uncle Fisty ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 ![]() |
Another change that helps adepts along I forgot to mention is Initiating for adept powers. You can take a power point now instead of a metamagic, which is great with the much more limited number of adept powers you can take, and especially good since SR4A increased the cost for raising attributes (which is a 'fix' I don't much care for personally). It's actually cheaper to increase your initiate grade than to raise your magic, especially when using Ordeals and Groups. Gives a lot more crunch reasons for the "warrior orders" and the like for adepts.
|
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 7th July 2025 - 10:23 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.