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hermit
post Jun 27 2010, 10:19 PM
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I have to wonder where the corps are growing, the game world seems remarkably static over the past few decades. If there are massive deep see mining operations going on, why is there so little information about them in game? Perhaps there should a deep sea supplement as well.

Hell yes. Absolutly.

Also, there was Proteus. Pity they never translated the stuff. It'S weird and has a heap of transhuman element. Skeptic ould have loved it to bits, I think.

QUOTE
I cant find the specific source but some people have linked a decline in optimism in the US with a decline in interest in science fiction in the US. Conversely, it seems that science fiction is really taking off in China, and some people attribute that to higher levels of education and a government emphasis on innovation and expansion.

And repression.

Also, you can link the probablility to die in an airplane crash and caffeine consume if you want to. Correlation by itself means little. But yes, it might be an indicator that this ultra optimism is wanig, since these books are dripping it so much it is rather a pain to read them sometimes (especially Asimov and Heinlein). But that's me tralking from the perspective of someone whose cultural environment has always been very doom and gloom.

QUOTE
Interestingly enough, works by "Asimov, Clarke, Pohl, Heinlein and other Golden Age authors - with their 'Humanity Uber Alles' approach - are the works being sold, being read, being taught." while others are being subject to censors.

Sure, China is running high on fin de siecle nationalism right now, and borrowing from early cold war USA a lot. The Heinlein/Asimov/et al books fit in well there, including this chauvinist attitude.
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IceKatze
post Jun 27 2010, 10:32 PM
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Oh, culture does not exist because that would be politically incorrect? Neat.
Nice straw-man, very elegant and neat indeed, I thought the attempt to frame my argument in the right wing talk radio pejorative was especially clever. One of the things you'll discover as you study sociology across cultures is that even when you find instances of a statistically significant difference these kinds of behavior patterns, you will still find greater variation within cultures than across.

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Relevant to stagnation, not rapid development of the self being the goal in life? Certainly.
I guess I am confused about the point you are trying to make here.

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You do not tap into new ressources until you have to.
I think it might be the other way around. You tap any resources that you can turn a profit on. When you are a giant extraterritorial corporation, you can do more than one thing at a time. There is a demand for space technology, especially in a world with such heavy global communications. Satellites and also research laboratories need to be built, placed, repaired, refueled and updated, while factories can produce many more times their own mass in refined goods. The advantages of having on sight production and maintenance seems pretty clear to me anyway.

----
While optimism in the US isn't at an all time low, a recent gallup poll shows that optimism about the future of the USA is down over 10% from the 1990s and early 2000s, while pessimism up significantly.
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hermit
post Jun 27 2010, 11:03 PM
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One of the things you'll discover as you study sociology across cultures is that even when you find instances of a statistically significant difference these kinds of behavior patterns, you will still find greater variation within cultures than across.

Never doubted that, humanity is nothing if not capable of extremes, especially in behavior. The main body of a goven population, though, will conform to a degree to a set of rules, regulations, perceptions and behavior patterns that usually is summed up as culture.

QUOTE
I think it might be the other way around. You tap any resources that you can turn a profit on.

Kind of. You cannot turn a profit n difficult to access, process or sell ressources if there are sources that are cheaper, higher quality or easier to process with current facilities around, hence the alternative oil ressources being tapped in only recently despite in part being known for 100 or more years already.

QUOTE
There is a demand for space technology, especially in a world with such heavy global communications. Satellites and also research laboratories need to be built, placed, repaired, refueled and updated, while factories can produce many more times their own mass in refined goods.

Stations need logistics. Factories need a way to get their produce to a target market. Factories also need raw materials. So long as the transfer of material into orbit isn't very substantially reduced, that simply isn't viable, even if we accept all other shenanigans like putting asteroids on a Lagrange point and mining them, and setting up orbital facilities as being fully tried, tested, viable and not prone to many malfunctions requiring on-site repair. And how many emerging technologies are as stable?

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The advantages of having on sight production and maintenance seems pretty clear to me anyway.

Because you persist to ignore the cost of the support infrastructure and assume cheap to free transfer to orbit.
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IceKatze
post Jun 28 2010, 12:38 AM
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The main body of a goven population, though, will conform to a degree to a set of rules, regulations, perceptions and behavior patterns that usually is summed up as culture.
Populations tend to follow a rather standard bell curve.

QUOTE
Because you persist to ignore the cost of the support infrastructure and assume cheap to free transfer to orbit.
I've cited a lot of sources, and given lots of examples of how it can be done very cheap, and I can continue to do so if necessary. Such as: $60-600 per pound in 1962 tech. But I have a feeling it isn't going to make much difference, and anyway I guess it is more of the mechanical aspect and less the sociology aspect anyway.

I think Big D was into space travel. I had always thought it was related to the horrors, but I don't really know for sure. I don't know if there are any other dragons out there that actually like people, assuming that Big D actually liked people in the first place like he seemed to.
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Tzeentch
post Jun 28 2010, 03:59 AM
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QUOTE (IceKatze @ Jun 28 2010, 01:38 AM) *
I think Big D was into space travel. I had always thought it was related to the horrors, but I don't really know for sure. I don't know if there are any other dragons out there that actually like people, assuming that Big D actually liked people in the first place like he seemed to.

-- Saeder-Krupp at least partially appears to be developing space assets as a "just in case" if the Horrors return early -- which given how damn close they've gotten after only a few decades since Awakening you can bet that the dragons take it VERY seriously that they might succeed. The fact that actual Horrors made it through in at least one spot, and that wraiths and invae are found in quite a few areas so soon after the magic returned has to weigh heavily in any plans by the immortals.
QUOTE
The biggest problem I see with Shadowruns in space is getting there. All the other thematic elements fall into place pretty easily, but there's no good way to hide in space and thus no good shadows as it were. For shadowruns to be a common occurrence in space, there would need to be a lot more commonplace traffic. However, that doesn't rule out more overt operations of some of the higher powered campaign settings.

-- It won't necessarily tie in with the "street level" ideal of shadowrunning in order to afford your next meal and coffin motel room, but there's no shortage of escapades you can get up to in space.
QUOTE
Edit: I have to wonder where the corps are growing, the game world seems remarkably static over the past few decades. If there are massive deep see mining operations going on, why is there so little information about them in game? Perhaps there should a deep sea supplement as well.

-- Yeah things are a bit strange. Partly this is due to (possible lack of overall) population growth and the big questions as to whether wealth is actually increasing in Shadowrun. Sure there are more people, but absolute wealth appears to be the same or actually reversing -- which would explain the almost complete lack of inflation since 2050 -- and the evidence that the Shadowrun world is actually undergoing a prolonged and painful deflationary event.

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IceKatze
post Jun 28 2010, 04:24 AM
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hi hi

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-- Yeah things are a bit strange. Partly this is due to (possible lack of overall) population growth and the big questions as to whether wealth is actually increasing in Shadowrun. Sure there are more people, but absolute wealth appears to be the same or actually reversing -- which would explain the almost complete lack of inflation since 2050 -- and the evidence that the Shadowrun world is actually undergoing a prolonged and painful deflationary event.
I know there are certain regions of the planet that have become deserted/reverted to wild lands, but this almost sounds like you could drive across the UCAS and find any number of old ghost towns just ripe for a sudden jaunt into the survival horror genre. Maybe I'm just projecting my enjoyment of said genre, but wasn't there an old abandoned space station like that too?
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SkepticInc
post Jun 28 2010, 04:47 AM
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QUOTE (IceKatze @ Jun 28 2010, 05:24 AM) *
hi hi

I know there are certain regions of the planet that have become deserted/reverted to wild lands, but this almost sounds like you could drive across the UCAS and find any number of old ghost towns just ripe for a sudden jaunt into the survival horror genre. Maybe I'm just projecting my enjoyment of said genre, but wasn't there an old abandoned space station like that too?


Nerva L3 Station. And what a wonderful name! NERV(a): "It's penetrating your AT field! Reverse the tangent graph!"
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Lanlaorn
post Jun 28 2010, 04:36 PM
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Regarding surface to orbit costs, I don't know what the fluff says is being used but with the level of technology and magic, for crying out loud in Shadowrun you could trivially create any number of dirt cheap methods.

I mean hell, take a space elevator, we know they readily have the materials on hand for the cable but now cast a Quickened Levitate on the capsule. You can, completely energy free, lift it up out of the atmosphere until it leaves the gaiasphere and the background count in space puts the spell into dormancy. That's by far the hardest part of surface to orbit done for free.

I mean hell, every launch vehicle should be "ok we'll Levitate until we break the atmosphere then the engines kick in". Granted it's (relatively) very slow, Force*hits meters/turn so even a Force 12 spell will do 48 m/s or 172.8 kph (107 mph). But that's still ~35 minutes from ground to LEO, so quite bearable.

Or how about just cheap launch vehicles and Air Spirits using their Movement power? It multiples speed by the spirit's magic (which equals its force), so a Force 10 spirit increases your velocity by an order of magnitude! The Body value of your craft will have to be low but for a relatively flimsy cargo box you're sending to your orbital factory that shouldn't be a problem.

So really it's quite pointless to argue about the cost/pound to get things into orbit in the Shadowrun world, they definitely have the technology to pull it off cheaply but completely ignoring that, they can use magic to greatly augment the tech.
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Doc Chase
post Jun 28 2010, 04:49 PM
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QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Jun 28 2010, 04:36 PM) *
Regarding surface to orbit costs, I don't know what the fluff says is being used but with the level of technology and magic, for crying out loud in Shadowrun you could trivially create any number of dirt cheap methods.

I mean hell, take a space elevator, we know they readily have the materials on hand for the cable but now cast a Quickened Levitate on the capsule. You can, completely energy free, lift it up out of the atmosphere until it leaves the gaiasphere and the background count in space puts the spell into dormancy. That's by far the hardest part of surface to orbit done for free.

I mean hell, every launch vehicle should be "ok we'll Levitate until we break the atmosphere then the engines kick in". Granted it's (relatively) very slow, Force*hits meters/turn so even a Force 12 spell will do 48 m/s or 172.8 kph (107 mph). But that's still ~35 minutes from ground to LEO, so quite bearable.

Or how about just cheap launch vehicles and Air Spirits using their Movement power? It multiples speed by the spirit's magic (which equals its force), so a Force 10 spirit increases your velocity by an order of magnitude! The Body value of your craft will have to be low but for a relatively flimsy cargo box you're sending to your orbital factory that shouldn't be a problem.

So really it's quite pointless to argue about the cost/pound to get things into orbit in the Shadowrun world, they definitely have the technology to pull it off cheaply but completely ignoring that, they can use magic to greatly augment the tech.


I don't think any corp is going to waste their magical talent on this, especially as the space elevator hasn't been finished yet.
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Lanlaorn
post Jun 28 2010, 04:59 PM
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Well it's not really much of an investment, granted using Quickened spells would get expensive karma wise fairly quickly, but hiring one mage with a few sustaining foci to lie on a blanket and make things go up would be remarkably cost effective.

You'd probably cover his wages for the year in fuel savings in a day.
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hermit
post Jun 28 2010, 05:04 PM
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QUOTE
I mean hell, every launch vehicle should be "ok we'll Levitate until we break the atmosphere then the engines kick in". Granted it's (relatively) very slow, Force*hits meters/turn so even a Force 12 spell will do 48 m/s or 172.8 kph (107 mph). But that's still ~35 minutes from ground to LEO, so quite bearable.

I guess you missed the part where magic does not work in space, or even just the Stratosphere (the Gaiasphere ends in what, 10 km height?).

Besides, this would be one hell of a waste of magical talent. Nevermind that they already have an immense spirit problem with the mass driver on Kilimandjaro, which is why they decided to greenlight the Skyhook project in the first place.

And finally, where the hell do you get then idea from that mages work for free. Especially guys witht he foci and powerr to make that happen.
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Doc Chase
post Jun 28 2010, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 28 2010, 06:04 PM) *
I guess you missed the part where magic does not work in space, or even just the Stratosphere (the Gaiasphere ends in what, 10 km height?).

Besides, this would be one hell of a waste of magical talent. Nevermind that they already have an immense spirit problem with the mass driver on Kilimandjaro, which is why they decided to greenlight the Skyhook project in the first place.

And finally, where the hell do you get then idea from that mages work for free. Especially guys witht he foci and powerr to make that happen.


Especially when you get a mage outfitted with all that kit and training, he's proud of himself, ready to 'do good' for his corp, and he gets his first assignment:

To be a stevedore on the space elevator because his bosses are cheap.

I can see that going over real well.
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Lanlaorn
post Jun 28 2010, 05:31 PM
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Are you even reading my posts? Levitate lifts 200 kg (440 pounds) per point of force, if you're overcasting it's not hard at all to lift a couple tons of cargo with normal force levels. I'm not advocating carrying passenger liners into space with your mind here. So "the power and the foci to make that happen" is a Force 4-5 mage. Next, I specifically mentioned the mage's wages being covered by the savings in fuel, so no, I don't think they work for free.

Also FYI, according to Street Magic,

QUOTE
As you get farther from the Earth’s
astral form and the presence of living material, however, astral
space becomes one vast void. At the upper mesosphere
of Earth’s atmosphere and beyond into deep space, the astral
plane is a singular void with small pockets of weak mana located
at orbital stations and lunar colonies.


So no, the gaiasphere ends at 100 km in height, you missed a 0 there.

The mesosphere is above the stratosphere and ends at 50 miles above the Earth, and "space" is said to officially exist at about 60 miles above the Earth (and you can do a Low Earth Orbit at 100 miles). Mages are rare but this would be remarkably easy and incredibly cost effective, Corporations could spare one Mage for their space divisions. Hell, he could also be in charge of security and be the guy maintaining the wards and keeping spirits patrolling the place. He literally needs to know one spell, Levitate.

Take the time to read this post before you reply by the way, maybe even formulate a reasoned argument this time rather than just some agressive knee jerk nonsense.
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hermit
post Jun 28 2010, 06:02 PM
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Are you even reading my posts? Levitate lifts 200 kg (440 pounds) per point of force, if you're overcasting it's not hard at all to lift a couple tons of cargo with normal force levels.

Yes, and if you're a masochist, you actually want a job that is as intensely painful. Not to m,ention that "a couple tons" isn't very much in space travel anyway.

QUOTE
I'm not advocating carrying passenger liners into space with your mind here. So "the power and the foci to make that happen" is a Force 4-5 mage.

Okay, so you build a trillion nuyen structure for what, levitating microsattelites up? That shows some awesome business sense on your part. Congratulations, and I am hopnored to meet the new Bill Gates.

QUOTE
Hell, he could also be in charge of security and be the guy maintaining the wards and keeping spirits patrolling the place. He literally needs to know one spell, Levitate.

Because you buy such people out of chargen, yes. And he could also be in charge of Matrix security! And you only need one guy, because people never want days off, need to sleep, or get sick. You could also have him do security at all the other places in the world too! Because multitasking never is a problem to anyone at all.

QUOTE
Take the time to read this post before you reply by the way, maybe even formulate a reasoned argument this time rather than just some agressive knee jerk nonsense.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Yes, as soon as you post something that is even remotely thought through and not just "hey, technically this might work with the rules".
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Doc Chase
post Jun 28 2010, 06:18 PM
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There are currently three ways to get something into orbit in the SR universe:

1. Solid fuel rocket boosters. Tried and true method - it's worked for over a hundred years. Incredibly wasteful, incredibly inefficient, but it makes plenty of pretty lights. Can't put a lot of mass in orbit with it.

2. Mass driver. Massive electromagnetic space catapult. I'm sold on it just for the fact it's a [b]space catapult[/i]. Spirits don't like it - love messing with it. They want it out of their land. Also burns a lot of power, but not so much fuel. Giant chain of capacitors + fusion plant = big kabang.

3. Space elevator. A 65,000 mile long cable. Can be used to transmit power along with shipping materials up the chain. Most fuel efficient as it doesn't have to use fuel - the rollers just use the power flowing down the cable. Ironically we will likely have space elevators before a mass driver in RL - they've been working with carbon nanotube designs this year.

The trouble with press-ganging mage teams to Levitate cargo for options 2 and 3 is that there's no point for them to do it.
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hermit
post Jun 28 2010, 06:36 PM
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Besides, I doubt operating a maglev along the hook would be so much more expensive.
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Doc Chase
post Jun 28 2010, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 28 2010, 07:36 PM) *
Besides, I doubt operating a maglev along the hook would be so much more expensive.


Eh, to make a maglev work you'd need two to four lines, otherwise the magnetic repulsion would push the train right off the tracks and to its screaming doom, which would be bad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The big restriction they have right now for transport via elevator is time spent - if you don't mind that it's going to take like 3 months for it to get up there, then all right! If time sensitivity is an issue, well then you're kinda screwed. By 2072, they've clearly solved this problem.

Hell, they have suborbital aircraft capable of traversing the world in a matter of hours by last year in the timeline. I'm surprised the elevator took 60 years to become viable.
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SkepticInc
post Jun 28 2010, 06:46 PM
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QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Jun 28 2010, 07:18 PM) *
3. Space elevator. A 65,000 mile long cable. Can be used to transmit power along with shipping materials up the chain. Most fuel efficient as it doesn't have to use fuel - the rollers just use the power flowing down the cable. Ironically we will likely have space elevators before a mass driver in RL - they've been working with carbon nanotube designs this year.


I'll believe it when I see it. I'm a fan of the idea, and I want it to work, but it's one of those technologies that's been "right around the corner" for quite a long time. I've heard someone managed to start making much smaller nanotubes, but I haven't found any references yet.
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Lanlaorn
post Jun 28 2010, 06:48 PM
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You guys are aware that the vast majority of mages employed by corporations are making goods to be sold for profit? You've got the security mages and the R&D mages and then the rest are just churning out formulae, foci, fetishes and whatever other product is in demand. Corporations do what is profitable and a Mage in their space division would be more profitable than a Mage in the Focus sweatshop.

One Force 4-5 Mage with 2 Foci of the same force (so 80,000-100,000 nuyen) could, without overcasting, lift 6 2-ton cargo capsules an hour. He works a typical 9-5 and so puts up 96 tons of raw material for your orbital factory per day. With no expenses besides his salary. That absolutely will be cheaper than the fuel or electricity for other launch methods and more profitable than making magical goods. And as I mentioned, this same mage would be on site for maintaing wards and keeping a few bound spirits patrolling (which takes one day a month, if that, to set up, so pretty damn easy to "multitask").

Oh btw, I know you don't actually know anything but "microsatellite" is a real term and they're classified as under 100 kg in weight. I didn't even intend this for launching anything prebuilt, simply raw material where one lump sum of 100 tons or 50 doses of 2 tons spread over the day doesn't make a difference. In case you're curious though, the average satellite weight is about 2 tons, but only a quarter of geostationary communication satellites fall into that range, most things AAA Corps would want to launch would be a few times heavier. Although you could just *gasp* assemble it in space.

What exactly is your argument against this plan, again? Because it clearly would be a) doable and b) cost effective. The only reason it hasn't been is because a fluff writer hasn't thought of it yet.
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Doc Chase
post Jun 28 2010, 06:53 PM
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QUOTE (SkepticInc @ Jun 28 2010, 06:46 PM) *
I'll believe it when I see it. I'm a fan of the idea, and I want it to work, but it's one of those technologies that's been "right around the corner" for quite a long time. I've heard someone managed to start making much smaller nanotubes, but I haven't found any references yet.


MIT's been submitting nanotube designs for the Space Elevator Games since '07, it seems, according to the wiki on Space Elevator.

This particular set of games has them doing competitions on lifting and tensile strength materials. Apparently they've got climbers that can pull 2m/s.
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Doc Chase
post Jun 28 2010, 07:07 PM
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QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Jun 28 2010, 06:48 PM) *
You guys are aware that the vast majority of mages employed by corporations are making goods to be sold for profit? You've got the security mages and the R&D mages and then the rest are just churning out formulae, foci, fetishes and whatever other product is in demand. Corporations do what is profitable and a Mage in their space division would be more profitable than a Mage in the Focus sweatshop.


I was always under the impression that wiz kids (not to be confused with Wizkids, har) created and bonded their own foci - which is why the telesma market is huge. But yes, we're aware that corporations want money, and mages want to get paid.

QUOTE
One Force 4-5 Mage with 2 Foci of the same force (so 80,000-100,000 nuyen) could, without overcasting, lift 6 2-ton cargo capsules an hour. He works a typical 9-5 and so puts up 96 tons of raw material for your orbital factory per day. With no expenses besides his salary. That absolutely will be cheaper than the fuel or electricity for other launch methods and more profitable than making magical goods. And as I mentioned, this same mage would be on site for maintaing wards and keeping a few bound spirits patrolling (which takes one day a month, if that, to set up, so pretty damn easy to "multitask").

So what you're really saying is, all I need to do to completely disrupt this company's elevator operation is get a guy with a high powered rifle about a klick away? Nice.

And as a bonus, I knock out the entire facility's astral defense? Oh man!

QUOTE
Oh btw, I know you don't actually know anything but "microsatellite" is a real term and they're classified as under 100 kg in weight. I didn't even intend this for launching anything prebuilt, simply raw material where one lump sum of 100 tons or 50 doses of 2 tons spread over the day doesn't make a difference. In case you're curious though, the average satellite weight is about 2 tons, but only a quarter of geostationary communication satellites fall into that range, most things AAA Corps would want to launch would be a few times heavier. Although you could just *gasp* assemble it in space.

While I'm sure this will be ignored, the snarkiness isn't helping your cause. Seriously, you'll get quite a bit better quality debate if you lose the chip on your shoulder. There's a difference between being a smartass for humor and just being an ass because people don't agree with you.

QUOTE
What exactly is your argument against this plan, again? Because it clearly would be a) doable and b) cost effective. The only reason it hasn't been is because a fluff writer hasn't thought of it yet.


My argument is that I would have better things to do with my magical talent. I also don't agree that it would be doable - I feel it relies far too much on one person for such a menial chore. Just because a corp likes to minimize costs doesn't mean that they're going to go to these lengths.
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SkepticInc
post Jun 28 2010, 07:08 PM
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QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Jun 28 2010, 07:53 PM) *
MIT's been submitting nanotube designs for the Space Elevator Games since '07, it seems, according to the wiki on Space Elevator.

This particular set of games has them doing competitions on lifting and tensile strength materials. Apparently they've got climbers that can pull 2m/s.


I am full of YAY!™ at the prospect. Thanks for the link.
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TommyTwoToes
post Jun 28 2010, 07:10 PM
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QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Jun 28 2010, 01:48 PM) *
You guys are aware that the vast majority of mages employed by corporations are making goods to be sold for profit? You've got the security mages and the R&D mages and then the rest are just churning out formulae, foci, fetishes and whatever other product is in demand. Corporations do what is profitable and a Mage in their space division would be more profitable than a Mage in the Focus sweatshop.

One Force 4-5 Mage with 2 Foci of the same force (so 80,000-100,000 nuyen) could, without overcasting, lift 6 2-ton cargo capsules an hour. He works a typical 9-5 and so puts up 96 tons of raw material for your orbital factory per day. With no expenses besides his salary. That absolutely will be cheaper than the fuel or electricity for other launch methods and more profitable than making magical goods. And as I mentioned, this same mage would be on site for maintaing wards and keeping a few bound spirits patrolling (which takes one day a month, if that, to set up, so pretty damn easy to "multitask").


Not only this, but some mages may not be at all interested in working in a Fetish sweatshop or doing security work. A job where they can be outside all day, putting paackages up into space might really appeal to some of them. Don't discount the personalities of the workers, espcially if they have a rare and hard to reporoduce skillset (magician).

As to the arguments against cost effectiveness, it won't be cost effective to be the first company to launch a major project in space. If you are the first ones to set up an asteroid mining operation, it is going to cost a pile. Of course as you put up some population and production, it becomes necessary to build some infrastructure out there. Then to get the most out of that infrastructure investment, you might want to rent capacity out to others. Now they can build projects for less cost. And so on...

The first guy who took a wagon out West wasn't doing it because it was cost effective to go build a town from scratch.
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Lanlaorn
post Jun 28 2010, 07:20 PM
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While I'm sure this will be ignored, the snarkiness isn't helping your cause. Seriously, you'll get quite a bit better quality debate if you lose the chip on your shoulder. There's a difference between being a smartass for humor and just being an ass because people don't agree with you.


That was directed to Hermit, if you look at the posts on this page you'll see I came into this completely snark-free and posting about how magic could greatly help with surface to orbit costs. Hermit decides the response to this is to display his startlingly lack of reading comprehension while being openly hostile. I am replying in kind. I'm cool with you Doc, although I must say if I were a wage mage I'd much rather be the magic stevedore than churning out formulae or whatever. I'm sure the pay is great, since mages are so rare, but the work has got to be ridiculously unrewarding.
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TommyTwoToes
post Jun 28 2010, 07:20 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 27 2010, 05:19 PM) *
Sure, China is running high on fin de siecle nationalism right now, and borrowing from early cold war USA a lot. The Heinlein/Asimov/et al books fit in well there, including this chauvinist attitude.

Actually the cyclical nature of Easter outlooks could result in a China that definately thinks of itself as on top or rising to the top and settign up a big manned space project would be prestigeous and in keeping with their destiny.

Or an AI could be looking for a redundant environment to house Matrix-space.

As another aside, someone mentioned that the world population was pretty stagnant, it shouldn't be. Orcs alone should have a population growth curve that scares the crap out economists and humanis folks alike. Doesn't it say in the orc description that multiple births are common (I don't know why I have the number 8 stuck in my head but I do). Also Orcs physically mature very quickly, how young do they become sexually active? 10 or so based on their short lifespans sounds about right. We should be seeing some pretty heavy pop growthfrom them. Normally lowign income levels result in higher pregnancy rates as well, and that situation may fit a large portion of the orc populace.

I could even see human supremancists pushing for an off world colony just to get away from the other races and preserve their 'heritage'.
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