And fixing it so its good against spirits and not so good against people (and drones!)....is hard.

I'm of the belief that the damage inflicted by SnS rounds should be 6S(e) - period. If you get hit by one, you take 6S(e), no more, no less.

Before the haters start hating: I know my view on this is not supported by either the rules or community.

Then you max out at Force 11 spirits being the biggest that SnS can take down. And all of them will take double-taps. Force 12 and up? Immune. Strait up. All the time.

And outlawed in all the games I play in for that reason.

Exactly. I don't think SnS should be an answer to spirits. To me it seems lame as all get-out.

I tend to agree, SnS is a problem, spirits being so easily summoned is a problem, the two do not excuse each other.

To me it just seems ridiculous. Here's an otherworldly supernatural being that can shrug off a lot of gunfire and deflect blades and clubs all day long. Throw some batteries at it!!!

That's only a viable solution if you're a sports fan from Philly.

Two problems:

First, the rule "Immunity to Normal Weapons" does not state that the armor provided is "Hardened Armor", but only that it is "treated as 'hardened' protection". The next section details to what extent ItNW is treated as hardened: "meaning that if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically does no damage."

Therefore, ITNW is not "hardened armor," it is only treated as hardened armor to the extent that if the damage doesn't exceed the armor, then there is no damage. Inferring that the Armor rating is modified by Armor Penetration is reading restrictions that may not apply to ITNW.

Second, in the ITNW rule, the attack does no damage unless the damage value exceeds "the Armor". Note that in Hardened Armor, the rule discusses "Armor rating" (AR) with a parenthetical that AR is modified by Armor penetration (AP). This is a parenthetical to remind us that AR is modified by AP. In the combat section, we are reminded that "The AP is used to modify a target's Armor rating when he makes a damage resistance test."

There is also some confusion in that the Immunity rule mentions both "Armor Rating" and "Armor." Either the developers intended this (must exceed Armor to hurt the mob, then use Armor Rating to resist damage), or there is a mistake and either "Armor Rating" or "Armor" is intended. It is unclear which one would prevail.

RAW: Unless your Damage Value exceeds 2x(Magic Rating), you can't damage the spirit.

where do you get 11 from, if it does 6S damage with nethits not adding to damage then force 5 is highest it can harm, force 6 has 12 points of armor that gets halfed to 6 and as your dDV of 6 doesn't exceed the armor it get incnored

And then it prefers you to see hardened armor for how the rules work on that.
So the rest of your post is just wrong all the way.

I think he was talking about the ITNW value instead of the Force, that's what I assume anyway.

....Half armor? 11 / 2 = 5.

Oh, I see my mistake, yes. I'm clearly not awake yet (hmm...only been at work an hour and a half...huh).

Nvm, Draco's coffee finally kicked in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I wouldn't waste your time, biccat. I made the exact same arguments in the other thread and you're absolutely right, anyone who reads the Immunity entry literally should come to the same conclusion but whatever.

Instead I guess it's more fun to:
1. Interpret the rules in a way that makes SnS rounds OP as hell.
2. Complain about how powerful SnS rounds are and ban them from your games.

I don't drink coffee. But...something something...I forgot.



Alternatively you can:
1. Interpret the rules in a way that makes spirits OP as hell.
2. Complain about how there's nothing powerful enough to take them down.

The second half of my argument deals with this. Since it isn't possible to tell from reading the INWp entry if "Armor value" and "hardened" are referring to Armor and Hardened Armor, I went to show that Spirits are treated under normal rules for combat, which they are. Keep in mind that Immunity is a blanket power that can be applied to many things, such as Immunity to Tickling. Tickling doesn't cause damage so much, but while resisting the Tickling, the creature who is Immune to Tickling would have an "Armor value" that is "hardened" against Tickling. Therefore if the modified Tickling "DV" doesn't top the modified "Armor value" then the Tickling does nothing. This is why the entry is written like it is.

Additionally, there is the clarifying sentence "Additionally, this “Armor rating” is added to the [damage resistance test] as normal Armor." That is not in my copy of the book but has been pointed out in other discussions.

Stunbolt to the face, 1 hit KO? Spirit on Spirit action?

I realize "depend on your Mage" isn't the answer you guys want to hear but it's a bit like complaining that there's no way to get the files out of the enemy network than hacking them and determining that SnS rounds should fry a computer's ICE allowing anyone to just roll Computer + Edit to retrieve the data.

Magic and the Matrix are made beyond the reach of brute force, and I understand that it's far easier to become a halfway decent hacker while still being a Sammy or to just get a tricked out agent, but that's how it's laid out.

I suppose you could keep a paranormal critter on a leash to take out spirits if you lack an Adept or Mage similar to how an Agent could fill in for a Hacker or TM, but I'm not well read on critter stats.

Look. There very clearly needs to be a Rock Paper Scissors relationship here. Unfortunately "magic" is a shotgun and "spirits" are dynamite (critter powers, aka anything a spirit does, are not subject to Counter-Spelling; if the spirit goes first it eats the mage and its not hard for the spirit to go first, what with Force x2 in initiative).

And hacking isn't always needed. That's what Social Engineering (aka Con) can be used for.

There are multiple ways to solve nearly every problem a GM can throw at the party. Except spirits. The only way to counter spirits is a) a spirit of equal force which not every mage can summon or b) stunbolt which not every mage takes.

I have no problem with a force 12 spirit being immune, at that point, frankly it's so far beyond what is meta human, it might as well be a god of some sort. And it shouldn't be in the game. If as a GM you've let one in, you fucked up.

Think of what it is, it has 12 Logic, Intuition, Willpower and Charisma. It's more compelling, more brilliant, more cunning and more driven than you. Or me. Or you and me and the rest of the Dumpshock community combined. If it's in a position to be shot, then you as the GM haven't played it right. If it's being summoned as nonchalantly as you seem to imply, by considering it an argument, than you as a GM are doing it wrong. That spirit should be spending edge and burning edge to prevent itself from being bound.

This doesn't address the issue. Either the rules in ITNW supersede the normal rules or they don't. If they do, then the "normal rules for combat" are inapplicable and should be ignored for this case. If they do not, then default to "normal rules for combat." You're ignoring the text of the rule, failing to make the determination, and defaulting to the "normal rules."

I suppose a lot of rules issues would resolve themselves nicely if you ignored the special rules. But it's just not that easy.


Not sure how this is relevant. What is a "modified Armor value"? The ITNW rule mentions "Armor" and "Armor rating." To which are you referring?

If you're assuming that the entry as written is correct, then should be no question that AP doesn't help with overcoming immunity. The only valid contention that AP helps against immunity is the argument that the authors meant "...if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor rating..." And that's a very valid contention, given that "Armor rating" is used in almost every situation.


I agree. If a spirit is hit by an attack, the DV exceeds the "hardened" armor, and the "Armor rating" is reduced, then you use the "Armor rating" to resist damage. I don't think this has ever been questioned.

There's nothing wrong with correcting a potential error in the text, because the original meaning does make spirits possibly game-breaking powerful (a group with no magic against a mage is pretty screwed anyway...). It's not unusual for game masters to have house rules.

Nah, slay/slaughter spirit/s is a much better idea (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

FYI: I was mistaken. Force 6 spirits (and up) are immune. Force 6 spirits are (generally considered) not that hard to summon.

The one mentioned in the rules for Hardened Armor has, you know the rules ITNW tells you to see for how "hardened protection" wotks.

This, to me captures the core of why I do not allow such weapons to have special dispensation against ItNW.

There are a limited number of definitions of Armor in Shadowrun, each of which was treated in the argument. The statement you are making, if I have you correctly, is that Immunity to Normal Weapons is a new, special, and differently-ruled type of Armor?