Immunity to Normal Weapons. An often contentious Power in relation to Spirits and what sort of weaponry can be used by normal, mundane people to keep them from ruling everything in combat. The one side of the argument goes along the lines of pointing out that in all of the fiction, it takes extreme force to wipe out a Spirit. The canonical example, Ares nuking an Insect Spirit hive in Chicago at the location of the old FAFSA offices, is held on high as definitive proof that you can't taze Spirits. If you could use a zapper to take down Insect Spirits, then the metaphor of Bug Zapper would extend to Chicago and some of the best of Shadowrun history would be null and void.

Being Skeptical, as it were, I feel that the matter should be investigated further, so let us begin by inspect the wording on Immunity to Normal Weapons (INWp).

Data for our discussion is provided by our dear friend $_imon, in the form of a $imon$ez [Knowsoft], with bolded text being that which the author finds to be the most important points. Italicized and bolded text is the text that is at the root of the discussion. [Text surrounded by brackets is a dicepool, and may be followed by (text in a set of parenthesis) that indicates an Extended Test.].

There is an additional sentence that is not printed in my copy of the book, which has been relayed to $_imon as saying "Additionally, this "Armor rating" is added to the [damage resistance test] as normal Armor."

"Well," a good Skeptic would say, "what, exactly is this so called 'normal armor'? I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere." A very good question, so let's take a look at the first entry in Shadowrun 4th edition to mention rules on armor:

This wording leads us to wonder which type of damage we should be looking at. The answer is in the entry for Impact Armor:

That's fairly clear. So we know that the Spirits' Impact Armor values are being used, and a Spirit's Impact Armor value is equal to twice it's Force rating. So now we are comparing apples to apples, so let's go back up to the first entry. Our next task is to decide how the "hardened" part of this "Armor rating" applies. Let's look:

There is a parenthetical entry here that is dead center to the argument for using electrical or energy weapons against Spirits. "(modified by Armor Penetration)" in reference to DV and Armor rating. The rest of the entry states that any attack not exceeding this Armor rating (Impact Armor in this case) bounces off with no possibility of damage. If the modified Armor rating is smaller than the weapons DV, then the Hardened Armor offers no particular advantage. Here are the entries on AP and DV and [Damage Resistance] tests

Note that Condition Monitor is not strongly typed, so it can have four values: Applies to all Condition Monitors, Applies to untyped Condition Monitors only, Applies to no Condition Monitors, and Applies to some Condition Monitors. Let's, for the sake of not having our brains bleed, assume that the middle two arguments do not apply. The other two, All or Some, are not determinable.

"That's nice Skeptic, but look at the Immunity entry! It states "if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically does no damage." not "modified Armor value"!". Then I take a deep breath and let it out. To apply proper Skepticism, we need to show that Spirits are treated under the same rules of Armor, AP, DV, and Condition Monitors.

Let's start by looking at what INWp is. It's a Critter Power, written up under the rules in the Critter section of the rulebook.

Ok, so Powers are attached to Critters, but this is about Spirits. Well, yes, and spirits are listed under Critters, so we use those rules. But what if we don't? They have their own rules, right?

But that's not the same as Critter combat, right?

All combat rules apply equally for critters, characters, and as we have shown, Spirits. "But!" our Straw Man would interject "It references Armor with a capital 'A'! I know you changed all entries about armor into Armor for consistency sake, but this one started out that way! It refers to the Power of Armor, not normal armor!"

Well:

The Armor Power, it seems, is treated the same way as normal armor. "But," our Straw Man continues "it's magical armor, so we should treat it under those rules!" So we bring up the closest approximation with Mystic Armor.

This doesn't help the argument, as in this case hardening Mystic Armor invokes the Hardened Armor Power. But it may not apply, as you may notice that running through the rules is the concept of Physical. Physical Spirits have the power of INWp, Armor is a Physical Power, everything related is Physical.

By now, if we can agree that the weapons attacking the Spirit are working on the Physical plane, we know that the AP applies. To be in combat, the Spirit must be in the Physical plane, so here we have the introductory line on Spirits:

Which takes us to Materializing:

So the Immunity to Normal Weapons only applies to the Spirit when Manifesting, during which all normal combat rules apply, which includes AP.

"That Condition Monitor thing! They never have been said to have a Stun Condition Monitor! No zappy!" Shouts our die-hard Straw Man. Skeptical me cannot find anything in the Basic book disproving this statement, so it could be argued that they do not have a Stun Monitor, and cannot be affected by stun weaponry. This leaves laser weapons as the smallest category of weapon that manages to hurt a decently strong Spirit. For those playing with Street Magic, then this should suffice:

Which is clear. Spirits have a Stun Monitor, are treated like any other entity in combat, and can be disrupted by a sufficiently strong Stun weapon. The end result? The effects on past literature concerning Chicago? TO THE COMMENTS!

There's no logic hole. Tasers are NOT "Zeus bottled lightning bolts".

Tasers work by screwing with biological systems, not by overwhelming them with raw elemental power. They specifically work by causing your muscles to lock up. Pain is a side effect. Tasers are actually very low amperage.

Lasers, power lines, water cannons, all deliver a large amount of raw elemental force on their target.

Tasers do not. Ergo, in my games, they don't get to bypass ItNW.



-karma

OK, so lets come up with a hypothetical critter with "Immunity to Electricity".

Would you say that SnS ammo works normally against this creature - halves armor rating? Under RAW, a creature that is "immune to electricity" is susceptible to electricity (although slightly more resistant)?

What about a creature that has the special ability "Immunity to Sonic"? Would sonic rifles ignore its armor completely?

RAW doesn't make any sense in these examples. If a critter is immune to something, it's immune.

edit: Figured I'd address this one as well:

The Immunity rule does include an exception: "if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically does no damage."

Somewhat off topic, but if I'm not mistaken, Voltage is the proper measurement of Electrical Pressure (Force) and Wattage is the measurement of Power. Amperage is a measurement of the NUMBER of electrons in motion, ie the power of the "current" or path the electricity follows. I think Voltage or Wattage would be a more proper term used for what you want, and SnS would have plenty of both as I believe modern teasers supply high voltage to it's target. Go with Wattage I'd say.

Voltage measures the electric potential, amperage measures the flow of current. Volts * Amps = Watts (power). Resistors (e.g. the human body) transform volts to watts (V = I * R)

Voltage and Current are pretty well intertwined. Tasers work by generating a certain amount of voltage difference (so that electrons want to flow from one pole to the other) and use the natural resistance of the human body to create a current through the target, but not enough to be lethal. The current causes muscles to spasm, disrupting the body.

Basically the same way that defibrillator paddles work.

As, silly as it sounds... yes. It's badly written but by RAW a critter with Magic 6 and Immunity to Electricity would receive 6 against an electrical attack (6 x 2 = 12 / 2 = 6). If the effect isn't elemental the return is far greater.

However, the rule also makes a logical WTF a bit with Immunity to Age. In the description to that particular Immunity there appears to be no rating whatsoever. It just does not effect. This is in complete disregard of the rules they just laid out. Does this mean that ITNW that follows ALSO entirely throws out the previous rules? I suppose this does set the precedent to make a type of damage, effect, etc, 100% non-effective 100% of the time though, even though this is not stated in the rule description that encompasses the entirety of Immunity.... Sigh...

They tried to do too much at once and it came up making little sense and not working as intended, either one interpretation or the other. No matter how I've looked at this power it doesn't make sense in some regard, or is terribly broken in another. Really, they should have broken up spirit armor and immunity into different powers.

It really depends on how they define it not name it. Immunity to normal weapons is not an immunity it is a resistance just like hardened armor except magical crap goes right through it. Immunity to aging and pathogens are actual immunities. If you defined immunity to electricity as x2 force in hardened armor vs electricity it would not be immune just highly resistant. And again depending on how it was defined it would determine whether or not electricity 1/2d the armor value. In the case of something that specific you would think it would express that it was not halved kind of like non-conductive, but it does not have to be that way.

They can call it the unicorns immunity to gryphons and if they say it gives x2 hardned armor vs all non-magical attacks that is what it does despite its name implying it only works against gryphons.

As mentioned, it's just a name. The name has zero relevance to the actual rules it represents. You could rename Immunity to Normal Weapons to anything you like and it wouldn't change a thing. Likewise, you could call regular Ballistic Armor, I dunno, "Bulletproof Armor" and it, too, wouldn't actually make you immune to bullets simply because of that name. They're just shorthand labels for a broader set of rules. That's all.

I know a lot of people hate house rules but...

Tagz's House Rule for less Mind Numbing Immunity rules:

Resistance
Type: P - Action: Auto - Range: Self - Duration: Always
A critter with Resistance has an enhanced resistance to a certain type of attack, affliction, or effect. The critter gains a rating equal to it's Magic against that type of damage or effect. This is treated as "hardened" protection, meaning that if the damage or effect's rating does not exceed the Resistance rating then there is no damage or effect.

As this one removes any mention of the term "Armor" in any form, then there is no AP whatsoever. So a critter can have Resistance to Sound, Fire, poisons, pathogens, damage, whatever. The net effect is the same against most elemental effects, a positive gain against unusual ones such as sound, and a 50% reduction against non-elemental effects such as poisons.


Spirit Armor
Type: P - Action: Auto - Range: Self - Duration: Always
A critter with Spirit Armor provides both Ballistic and Impact Armor ratings equal to twice the critter's Magic. This Armor is treated as "hardened" protection against all weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers). If the critter has the Allergy weakness, then the Armor is not treated as "hardened" protection against non-magical attacks made using that allergen. All spirits have Spirit Armor unless otherwise noted.

Same rules that exist now, just clearer. AP works as normal as there is no exemption.


Immunity
Type: P - Action: Auto - Range: Self - Duration: Always
A critter with Immunity is completely unaffected by any damage or effect from that source. Typical Immunities include: Age, Toxins, Drugs, Pathogens, and Elemental effects.

This last one grants 100% protection from something.



Anyhow, that's how I think they should have written it. I can understand though... word count can make some scary results when you try to combine like things.

Except that Immunity to Age is NOT Immunity to Normal Weapons... they work completely differently, and are Completely different powers... You know, it could be why they don't work the same... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

Care to quantify large since we're being so specific? Where is the magic cut off in your game, a 9volt isn't enough but a car battery is? Where do you make the cut?

Depends. I don't count *any* nonmagic element as ignoring ITNW.

Neither does anyone else, they just halve the armar provided by it as per the rules.

If its immune to electricity (as per the critter power Immunity) then that 2xForce points worth of hardened armor would count as 2xForce points of Non-conductive armor as per the armor mod, meaning, full value versus electrical attacks.

Ditto on the immunity to sonic.

The armor penetration value on both electrical damage and sonic damage specifically bypass ballistic and impact armor. ITNW grants ballistic and impact armor. Immunity to Electricity grants Non-conductive armor and Immunity to Sonic grants Sound Dampener armor as per both of those element's specific armor types that are used at full value.

ITNW may also grant this "non conductive" and "sound dampening" armor as well, however, it is not worded as such (it specifically only grants Ballistic and Impact armor, which is halved for all elemental damage and ignored in the case of Sonic).

It does not specifically grant Ballistic and Impact armor, you're inferring that from the parenthetical (see Hardened Armor). Only for damage resistance tests does it give "normal armor". I don't understand how you intuitively will say Immunity to Electricity gives nonconductive armor but Immunity to Normal Weapons (which encompasses Electricity, because Normal is defined as non-magic) doesn't.

Bah I need to stop checking this thread, I constantly get the urge to reply but I know it's pointless.

You might want to polish this a bit more; in your version Spirit Armor still seems to give non-hardened protection against allergens. (Where it previously specifically gave none.) What about:
"If the critter has the Allergen weakness, then the Spirit Armor does not apply to attacks made using that weakness."

Ding ding ding.

Ever played Paranoia? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

"The critter gains an "Armor rating" equal to twice its Magic against that damage. Additionally, this "Armor rating" is added to the [damage resistance test] as normal Armor."

An armor rating against electricity that counts for its full value would be non-conductive armor, thus the "-half" doesn't apply (ditto sonic) because the "-half" is because impact armor is specifically halved versus elemental damage. If your immunity is granting "anti-electricity" armor, its not impact armor.

The only thing you could ever possibly argue is that ITNW armor isn't ever reduced, which makes spirits above Force 4 neigh unstoppable and spirits above Force 6 as definitively unstoppable.

My current sams cyber arm side always holds a Sakura Fubiki with SnS juts in case free action to start blasting. He has a heavy pistol as his main side arm though. Plus on top of that he has a shotgun/ar and sniper.

I have trouble seeing where there are magical elements?

If you are meaning the elemental spells they specifically point out that once the spell has taken form the manifestation is purely elemental and in no way actually magical. Lightingbolt spell lets you throw lightning but once its electric its just electic you cant counterspell a lightningbolt.

*shrug* It's from a magic source. I didn't say it was RAW. Max, 'ignoring' obviously means 'not subject to the full penalties' in this context.

That's exactly what I'm arguing and no, they're not unstoppable, just bring a Mage or an Adept.

I realize that's not what you want to hear but "I can kill any spirit I can land a hit on with my Sonic Rifle or Dart gun" is just insane, especially in the case of drugs vs. spirits.

For your drug statement, please add:
Outside of known allergies...

"As it is on earth, so shall it be in the heavens"

BlueMax

See, the issue is not "players killing them" but "players summoning them."

After more thought, I've decided that in my game we should probably play as written, that is, dumb stupid old SnS works.

Why?

Mainly game balance.

The crux of this issue doesn't really have to do with the weaker sprits(say force 4 and below) because we all know a good Sam with backup can send those things back to the Astral in pieces.

the issue is higher force spirits and how they lose a lot of their tremendous power when half of their armor isn't counted. Whether or not this is correct flavor wise isn't really what I'm talking about.

Look at a measly for 6 spirit of Man, our party spellcaster's tank du jour.

Give him stunbolt and fear as the optional powers.

Look at the stats:
body 7
reaction 8
intuition 6
logic 6
willpower 6

He's as smart as the smartest guy in your party. He's almost as fast as your Sam. he can't drive and he can't hack, but he can sure make a mess of his opponents.

He'll probably win initiative.

Maybe he'll materialize out of the party's sight, having watched them and assensed them from the astral first. He can probably tell who is a mage and who's a sam already. While he's no master sneak, he is smart and very perceptive and understands situational modifiers as well as the players.

First, get rid of that pesky mage with fear. Sure a mage will probably have a decent will, but not enough to beat 12 dice thrown against it. Heck, maybe 18 with the rule of 6. Immediately after forcing the mage to retreat he goes on full defense. that's 20 dice to dodge with.

I'm just making this up as a go along, but I hope I'm making a cogent point: spirits are smart, tough and very skilled. There is nothing to suggest that they wouldn't fight just as hard as the players do.

They need a balance, in this case, electric bullets and the like.