 Weapon foci |
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 Jul 6 2010, 08:57 PM
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#26
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Immortal Elf  Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890  |
You're missing the point.
You're getting what you pay for. You pay for a counterspelling focus, that's all you get. A counterspelling focus. It doesn't matter if it looks like an Ares Thunderstruck or a Citymaster. It's still just a counterspelling focus. If you also want it to have the abilities of an Ares Thunderstruck or a Citymaster, you have to buy them separately. Weapon foci are completely different. They're one in the same. You don't have a Dagger with a Weapon Focus, or a Monofilament Whip with a Weapon Focus... you have a Dagger Weapon Focus or a Monofilament Weapon Focus. The focus is the weapon. It's not an aesthetic choice. It's completely and wholly unique to Weapon Foci. Other foci don't share that characteristic. And it follows the same logic, too. Want your Weapon Focus (Improvised Club) to look like an Ares Thunderstruck? Fine. Done. But if you actually want to shoot things with it, too, that's another story completely. |
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Jul 6 2010, 09:48 PM
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#27
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 |
The problem with buying a plain-jane Weapon Focus is that it doesn't, by itself, have the necessary stats to work within the melee combat system. Great! It adds to melee attack rolls while active. Now what is its reach, damage, AP, and concealability?
No. If you want a weapon focus, you pretty much have to take an existing weapon(at the right price), and turn it into a weapon focus. You -could- have a Gun be a weapon focus. But it wouldn't apply while shooting, because shooting is not a melee attack. You could club a spirit with it, though. ((a better use would be a sustaining focus, paired with the enhance aim spell)) |
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Jul 6 2010, 10:20 PM
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#28
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Nope, that's still stupid. There'd be no situation where your weapon focus 'looks like Citymaster'. You start with a base item, and focus-ize it.
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Jul 6 2010, 10:42 PM
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#29
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 |
Well, yeah. You have to take a base item, then enchant it into a focus. You can Enchant anything you can make a Formula for, per street magic's rules. What its made out of only gives you a dice pool penalty.
If you want your weapon focus to look like a city master, you have a few options. It can either 'look like a city master', basically a model of one, made out of paper mache or whatever. But its not a city master. YOu don't get the city master for free with the focus. Or it can actually BE a city master. (at the appropriate cost). .... You know, a force 1 Vehicle(of whatever sort) Weapon Focus would be amazing to Ram dumb spirits over. I mean, they can only move out of the way if they win initiative. |
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Jul 6 2010, 10:48 PM
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#30
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Only if you can pick it up and club them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Jul 6 2010, 11:00 PM
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#31
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 |
No, whether or not you have to club someone with it is far less important.
That its dual natured, and active on the astral plane (well, with a simple action to activate the focus), is far more important. What? You're driving. You're in physical contact with your focus, so its able to be activated, and will be deactivated if you let go. We don't care that it adds a dice pool to melee mechanics. We don't even care that "weapon foci are effective against astral forms, and continue to add their force in dice against such enemies." We don't care how much dice we get, because melee dice don't matter when you're making a Ramming test. What we DO care about...... is being able to take our car with us while astrally projecting. We DO care that "The damage of the weapon is the same on the astral plan as it is on the physical world." And the ramming damage is based on the Speed of the vehicle. So remember, folks. The next time your players trigger an alarm at a corporate building... ....have the responding wagemage show up in an astral citymaster, and start running the teams spirits over. |
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Jul 6 2010, 11:08 PM
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#32
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Nope, because there's no rule for it unless it's a weapon attack. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Jul 6 2010, 11:21 PM
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#33
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 |
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 6 2010, 05:08 PM)  Nope, because there's no rule for it unless it's a weapon attack. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Not true. Put your money where your mouth is. Prove it. |
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Jul 6 2010, 11:23 PM
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#34
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
On the contrary, maybe I'm just mistaken. Feel free to show me the rules for astral vehicle weapon focus ramming. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Jul 6 2010, 11:30 PM
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#35
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 |
As per the Foci section, under Activation: "When activated, foci have an astral form."
This is a rule for all foci, not just weapon foci. Whether its a melee attack is irrelevant. The fact that it has an astral form, and can interact with other astral forms means that it can ram them. Just because a weapon focus -also- adds bonus dice to melee attack, does not mean that is the only thing you can use them for. I'm not saying you get bonus dice or anything for the ramming test. Just that the possibility of moving one astral thing very fast into another is now possible. And, uh, yeah, there are rules for it. There -are- rules for Ramming pedestrians. You should look them up before you go saying its not possible. Per 4a: 'if a driver wants to ram something(or someone) with the vehicle, treat it as a melee attack)' So I guess you do get bonus dice for your astral bumper. Sorry. Which is ace, because now your astral bumper can potentailly benefit from Energy aura. So its an AP-half ghost-bumper. |
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Jul 6 2010, 11:30 PM
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#36
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
QUOTE ('Udoshi') <snip> You realize that your argument is pretty stupid whether you pay for the item or not, right? That according to what you and others are saying, having an Ares Thunderstruck or a Citymaster as a focus (any kind of focus, apparently) means you can take it with you when you project and use it fully, whether you paid an extra cost or not. Just wanted to make sure you realized that little tidbit. |
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Jul 6 2010, 11:34 PM
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#37
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
There are rules for ramming in real space. I never said it wasn't possible to ram in real space. You're inventing the rule that astral forms can ram each other. After all, your movement rate in astral is hugely fast. You might as well just have kamikaze running attacks. The fact that this doesn't (and can't) happen is plenty of evidence for me.
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Jul 6 2010, 11:35 PM
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#38
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 |
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jul 6 2010, 05:30 PM) You realize that your argument is pretty stupid whether you pay for the item or not, right? That according to what you and others are saying, having an Ares Thunderstruck or a Citymaster as a focus (any kind of focus, apparently) means you can take it with you when you project and use it fully, whether you paid an extra cost or not. Hey, thats not what i'm saying at all. I -said- you do have to pay the extra cost, here: QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jul 6 2010, 04:42 PM) Or it can actually BE a city master. (at the appropriate cost). Stop putting words in my mouth, please. If you want your Focus to work like a city master, well, you need an enchanted citymaster. Which is entirely possible within the rules, but you should read up on street magic for details. As to the other part...... Yeah, I realize a ghost car is pretty silly. And awesome. But silly. In fact, you can do silly things with it. Like project, materialize next to your body on the road, and race your Pilot. I'm pretty sure that Shadowrun's ban on 'no magical ranged weapons' apply. Your astrally gauss cannon is really only good for poking people with if it can't fire - and without ammunition. |
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Jul 6 2010, 11:39 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 21-June 10 Member No.: 18,737 |
Regarding projection, Foci go with you into the astral but any technological aspects they possess stop working. So a car would become a giant paperweight on wheels. It's in the FAQ, the question was specifically about vibroblades as weapon foci. The answer was that a vibrosword in its astral form is just a sword, so a citymaster becomes a cart I guess.
So purely astral ramming wouldn't be possible, dual natured ramming might be, but I'm not sure how much damage a purely astral being would take. Considering the acceleration possible in astral form it's not like momentum or mass mean much there. So IMO that rules out "my car is a sustaining focus" types of things, but as a weapon focus, if you can get away with claiming ramming as a melee atack, should work. That said, an astral being could just fly upward at any time or effortlessly outrun the vehicle so good luck. |
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Jul 6 2010, 11:39 PM
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#40
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 |
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 6 2010, 05:34 PM) There are rules for ramming in real space. I never said it wasn't possible to ram in real space. You're inventing the rule that astral forms can ram each other. After all, your movement rate in astral is hugely fast. You might as well just have kamikaze running attacks. The fact that this doesn't (and can't) happen is plenty of evidence for me. I'm not inventing a rule at all. I'm just applying an exiting one to a new situation. The vehicles ramming damage would still be based on its meatspace speed. And, to be fair, shadowrun astralspace doesn't have vehicles natively. Otherwise, you can be sure that -someone- would have invented ghostly-dirtbike-jousting by now. If you want to argue from an out-of-game perspective on whether astral ramming is viable or not, then you need to quantify a spirits mass. |
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Jul 6 2010, 11:42 PM
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#41
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
No, my point was that there's no Body rating for anyone in that space. My position is that weapons aren't doing damage based on their weight, and being hit by a big object just pushes you. You don't get rammed by a hellhound, right? Instead, it's some philosophical voodoo about 'the essence of the weapon' and 'the will of the mind', and so on. Dragons and things are definitely big enough to be in the class of 'astral vehicles'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I'm not saying it's not a funny idea, and one that was original when someone first thought it up. But, like most funny game tactics, it doesn't actually function. |
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Jul 6 2010, 11:45 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 21-June 10 Member No.: 18,737 |
Heh the FAQ is actually pretty interesting regarding many topics in this thread:
QUOTE Can I have _____ as a focus? How much does it cost? A focus can take any form: a ring, a dagger, a commlink, a cyberlimb, etc. For most foci, it is assumed the cost of the telesma (the physical basis of the focus) is incorporated in the cost of the focus. If the player wants the focus to be anything particularly large or expensive, however, then the cost of the item should be added to the cost of the focus. Snowblood wants a Force 2 monofilament sword weapon focus; the talismonger tells her it would cost 20,750¥-750¥ for the telesma (monofilament sword) and 20,000¥ for the enchantment (Force 2 weapon focus). If your weapon focus requires fuel or power (monofilament chainsaw, vibroblade, laser crescent axe) does it work when you're astrally projecting? Yes, but since the technological aspect of the weapon (moving parts, monofilament, laser blade, etc.) doesn't apply in the astral, the weapon should be treated as its nearest basic equivalent (a chainsaw would simply be a club, a laser crescent axe would just be an axe, and so on). If you turn a weapon into a focus, but not a weapon focus, can I attack astral forms with it? Under the current rules, only weapon foci may specifically be used in astral combat. This question will be answered fully in an upcoming sourcebook. And, are you ready for this? QUOTE If you enchant a car as a focus, can you run someone's astral form over with it? This question will be answered fully in an upcoming sourcebook. Lol (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) |
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Jul 6 2010, 11:47 PM
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#43
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Yeah, I remember reading that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's a 'no, not yet'.
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Jul 6 2010, 11:53 PM
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#44
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 |
What are you smoking? Sure there is. Its just swaped for Willpower for -mages-. Spirits still have it, too - its just that they're handled specially, and use Force for everything. Including will-subbed-for-body tests. The car just gives everyone the finger, by using its own body, because its not a native
also, uh, how are people getting pushed without Force(which needs mass), and how does your interpretation affect dual natured beings? Your physics need to be consistent between both realsm. And I think you're also ignoring the bit about Weapon Foci getting special treatment for beating up on people. Reading it again, I think you would actually use your Astral Combat skill to do the ram attempt(since ramming is treated like a melee attack, and melee attacks with a weapon focus in astral work a different way). There's also rules-precedent for Astral forms being forced into/hitting other barriers - Wards, which are capable of automatically disrupting things forced into them. |
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Jul 6 2010, 11:56 PM
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#45
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
That makes sense, except you can't ram in astral. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You can hit someone with the car by holding it in your hand and smacking them, but you don't get a Ram action, and you don't get Ram damage.
There is zero reason for physics to be consistent across to astral. It's magic. Do people bruise their face if they run into a ward? |
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Jul 6 2010, 11:59 PM
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#46
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 |
So, lan, what you're saying is....
You need to find a Body 20 Boulder, turn it into a weapon focus, and use the Astral Speed walking/running tables to Katamari people into oblivion with an a giant, Fire Aura'd, AP half boulder of doom. What. Its got no technological parts. Just saying, the bit about technology not working doesn't invalidate the technique itself. |
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Jul 7 2010, 12:01 AM
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#47
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
See, *that's* exactly what I'm saying: the boulder doesn't work, and neither does anything else: critters, spirits, foci, whatever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The technique being invalid is what invalidates it.
I look forward to 'an upcoming sourcebook' that would give rules for that as much as the next guy. |
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Jul 7 2010, 12:02 AM
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#48
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,782 Joined: 28-August 09 Member No.: 17,566 |
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 6 2010, 05:56 PM) That makes sense, except you can't ram in astral. Do people bruise their face if they run into a ward? 1) prove it. You normally can't ram, because there are no vehicle class objects in astral. Once there are.....well, their rules don't change. 2) Yeah, they do. Spirits are instakilled, spells are automatically turned off, foci are disabled, and characters instantly fill their stun monitor. QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 6 2010, 06:01 PM) See, *that's* exactly what I'm saying: the boulder doesn't work, and neither does anything else: critters, spirits, foci, whatever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The technique being invalid is what invalidates it. But if it were, say, a transys steed, who's wheels don't stop working in astral(mechanical, not technological. okay, the electromotive -brakes- might stop working), and IS a vehicle, and not a rock, and can thus use vehicle options - like ramming. |
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Jul 7 2010, 12:04 AM
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#49
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
From smashing into the ward a là ramming, or from the magic of how wards work? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Jul 7 2010, 12:05 AM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 21-June 10 Member No.: 18,737 |
Why do you even need a vehicle? An astral projecting mage can "run" at 6,000 km/hour according to the rulebook. Just "ram" the spirit with the weapon focus rock that you're carrying in your arms.
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