So, fairly simple question. A Technomancer with Resonance Trodes can "drag a person’s mind into hot VR and nuke it with Black IC" Now, ignoring that a TM generally doesn't have access to IC, I'm curious: What kind of matrix stats does the person in question have? They aren't being connected through a commlink, so they wouldn't use any commlink's stats. Since they aren't going through a commlink they wouldn't have any programs. So what exactly is the person at that point? Some kind of impromptu resonance 0 TM with no CFs? If that's the case, does that mean a normal attack program could knock the person out?

Just curious because the book really doesn't go into any real detail about what happens other than mentioning it as a way to KO/kill someone if you can touch them.

No clue. Stupid book. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It doesn't appear to explain *anything* beyond 'share sensory info to/from the target'.

It doesn't say anything. Common sense says that a mundane person wouldn't get any programs or viable actions if draged in via resonance... But how that works is a little bit absurd. It's instant death/KO from a touch, no fighting back. Heck, the victim can't even log out. If the TM doesn't log them out themselves they theoretically suffer dump-shock when the TM lets go.

The book really needs to elaborate on this one.

yeah one could subue soem one then switch to VR and mess with them. Hell psychotropic CF for brain washing. BBG idea coming now.

Right, and this is exactly why I asked. No commlink means no stats, no resonance means no stats, no stats means no abilities to do anything. No abilities means a TM that can touch someone instantly wins with this ability. There is a short (1 IP) chance for someone else to break the two apart, but that is about it. And if the TM has Mesh Reality... well, good luck doing that.

Not quite true. A person in VR can't use anything on the matrix without the right program, and indeed default to program -1.

However, they can take any action they like that you don't have to roll. Very technically.

I still think that means Terminate Connection is about the only thing they can do. Possibly Run Program, if there happen to be any around. Conceivably, since they're in VR, the -might- be able to take Log On action to bring their own commlink into the session. Dunno how feasable that is, though.

How about houserule some kind of will test to resist the TM. Opposed or threshold.

Can't default on anything on the matrix. You must have the relevant program (or that quality that lets you do without).

Yeah, these would be some of the very few cases. You could log out (But continued contact with the TM means continually being forced into VR, so I don't think you actually could do this successfully. It would make for a very lame attack if you pulled someone into VR and they just logged out and punched you in the face)

There already is one to drag the person in if they are unwilling.

Edit: Resonance + Willpower vs Willpower + Intuition.

Anyone else notice that most TM powers use Willpower as their stat? Anyone else think this should maybe be changed to 'stream fading stat'?

they could log out face the fact theyare still head locked and then get sucked back in. Alos as soon as they brake out blackhammer or what every bye bye that action.

That doesn't work well at all for the TM though. In general the target is going to be stronger than the TM, and so would be able to break out of a hold fairly easily, and an attack is a complex action, so you would get a cycle of: Attack to grab them, they log out for free, then break free, then the TM has to grab them again, then they log out for free again...

Until the TM misses a grab and then they get beat on. That's why I figure the ability wouldn't allow a target to log out.

Why wait until after you subdue them? Just a touch attack and they're in VR and now have -6 to every physical action. Then, your Mesh-Reality-Echo-having TM just subdues the helpless guy while beating him to death with blackhammer.

How do you get blackhammer in there, anyway? Just curious. Crossload from a commlink linked to your bionode?

You thread it? Or you simply have it as a complex form? Nothing against TMs having BHs.

The real question is 'how do they get a Black IC in there?' because that is what the text says. Of course it never says where anyone ends up when they enter VR, so they could all end up on the TMs commlink that has a black IC waiting on it to nuke the guy... maybe that is the answer.

Thanks. I never play with Technomancers, too much pain. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I didn't realize they could thread/CF IC.

No, they can't thread/CF IC, but you can get blakchammer without IC. Blackhammer is just another program.

Oh, I misread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) My intention was to follow up on *your* question, but I got distracted by the next post. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Thanks.

So… crossload from a linked comm, like I said?

You're welcome. Could you imagine threading up a rating 12 IC/agent though? It would win the Matrix.

well a TM can get 5ip trix and 4 meat that means they just need to do this on turn 4 and bam extra IP of pure matrix to hit them. That or supirse round attack?

The nastiest thing i've come up with for Resonance Trodes is the Clinch maneuver.

Trodes are a Resonance + WP test vs Int+WP. More importantly, it doesn't require an action to apply.(which can be used to counter log-out cheese). Against unwilling targets, it needs a touch based(+2 dice, tie to attacker) to initiate

Clinch is a maneuver that, when you land an unarmed attack, lets you get so close reach bonuses don't matter instead of doing damage. Breaking the clinch means the defender needs to use a complex action(importantly), and win a str+bod opposed test. It takes no action to initiate, but if you don't want to do damage, its free lunch.

If you have Mesh Reality, which basically makes you dual-natured for the matrix and meatspace, lets you fight in physical and cyber combat at the same time with a -4 to everything. However: "this modifier can be reduced for cybercombat ONLY by using the macro echo." Which means... if you have Macro and Mesh Reality(which needs Multiprocessing), then you can use macro for cybercombat. Win.

So, more or less, you can punch someone in meatspace with a Complex Action, trigger clinch AND resonance trodes, because you hit with an unarmed attack and they're not mutually exclusive, thread up a blackhammer/blackout as a non/free action(i'm not sure what kind of action threading uses. FAQ says it doesn't take any, but I don't trust it), and Macro your second complex action to hit someone's brain with it with, all within one pass.
It takes 5 echoes to do, sure, but sometimes you just need to use a vulcan neck pinch.

What about the cybercommlinks that a person might have? OK you've sucked me into VR, now I can use my programs and Agents (assuming I have them) to fight you.

I know by the time a TM has the Karma for this trick I'll have a Response 6 commlink and all my cyberware will be at least Alpha grade. I'll cluster all that together so I can run commlink programs on them. This will allow me to "Agent Smith" that TM's ass.

Yes you can, programs take the place of attributes in the matrix and all the rules that apply to attributes ably to programs instead.
So you can default at program-1 when you dont have the neccesary skill, but ofcource you cant default if you dont have the relevant program, defaulting is for a lack of skill not attribute.

The Echo is called "Resonance Trodes" which suggests to me the same basic utility as a Trode net. So, since the link is between the target's brain and the technomancer's bionode there's no reason to think that the target's comlink gains any sort of access. Besides, nothing but CFs can operate in a bionode, so no killer Agents on either side of the struggle. Just a helpless guy getting his brain pounded by massive biofeedback until his eyes boil.

Honestly, in this case I'd probably give the victim basic attributes as if they were Technomancers. Since they are dragged in by Resonance, it makes sense that they would have a bio firewall and whatnot while that is sustained. Still no programs, so that really doesn't help them at all: they'd be creamed. But then, that's the power of Submersion, eh?

If they manage to log out, the Technomancer would have to drag them in again since it is a Resonance + Willpower, rather than anything to do with pure touch. It takes a force of will.

Still, in the end this ends up being very powerful. So avoid touching Technomancers and shoot them if they try. A lot. After all, are you going to let anyone you don't know come up and touch you? A lot of magic is touch based too, so people would be used to fearing touch.

Yeah, I've been contemplating putting together a Techno adept concept. A guy who isn't particularly good in the Trix, but is a weapon in the real world that no one sees coming. It'd make him a top-level assassin. No magic to mask, no essence drain apparent on his aura, just 4 meat IPs and a handshake that melts minds.

Which is a pretty awesome concept.

Really though, if the best way to defend an enemy Mage is to have a Mage in your party, then the same is likely true for a Technomancer. In this case, to break in and try to save your pal.

Another answer is to shoot the Techy. If you see one grab your friend, who falls down twitching, you're probably going to try to kill the guy or gal who did it. Then you don't have to worry about going in to save them. It might count as dumpshock for your friend, but that's better than boiled brains.