hmmmm... some people might look at me like i'm crazy, but i'm going to have to say... i'm not a big fan of spending 200 BP for attributes on a technomancer. grab log 5 so you can get 10 CFs, sure, but i really hesitate to spend more than about 160 BP on attributes, personally. attributes are really expensive.

also, skill groups: it might be a better idea if instead of buying the whole skill group, you considered what you're going to use most and grab those skills at higher ratings, while keeping other skills at 1 or 2. yes, you get a better deal in BP if you buy it as a skill group. but it can pay off to have key skills (such as computer and hacking) at 4 or 5 or even 6, while i doubt you'll regret too much having your electronic warfare at 1 or 2 (or not even have it) and having a sprite handle that end of things.

They are expensive, but techno needs high mental and decent body is must. Str is already at 1. Maybe I could drop R to 2 since his Init is low anyway, but I'd rather leave it at 3. Even if I drop it the BPs would go to Int to raise Response & Matrix Init.

For skills the max I can go is 4 since i already have two at 5. Electronics has 4 skills so breaking it would cost much more. Splitting Cracking would result Cybercombat 3, Hacking 3 and EW 1 with 2 BP to spare. I'd rather keep all at 3.

Yeah, but depending on the character, they are more than worth it. 10 BP to raise agility for instance instantly gives you a +1 to about 15 different DPs, which would of course cost 50+ BP to do individually (Admittedly several won't be used, but even if you've only raised 3 skills that you will use it is a net benefit, and infiltration and a weapon skill are almost always going to be used, so that is already 2). And since a TMs entire ability revolves around their mental stats, I figure it is well worth spending a big chunk of your BP there. In fact, I'm working on a TM now and am considering having virtually no skills so that I can have soft maxed mental stats, with a hard maxed resonance and 12 rating 6 CFs because of the absurd amount of karma it will take to get those things compared to getting a couple points in some skills. Only problem is it will be hard to earn those few karma (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) , and it makes for a somewhat hard to believe character (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) .

It's generally a better idea to get skill groups really, especially when it is comprised of 4 skills (like computers), even if you'll mainly only use 2 of the skills, because you're getting 2 skills at 2 BP a rating, which is absurdly good and generally worth squeezing in. For cracking I might agree if hacking/CC could be raised to 5 or 6, but that is already been done with compiling/registering, so no option for that. May as well spend the extra 2 BP a rank to get some decent ECCM skill for just in case you need it (And it can be absurdly handy if you know what you're doing).

@Ard3 I know you don't really have any BP to spare at this point, but consider grabbing the 10 BP SURGE and getting a metagenic improvement for logic. It'll be a 1 point boost (So you could get the BP from logic if you wanted) and raise your max, which could be handy later when you're struggling for every point of fading resistance you can manage.

Normally I'd agree with you, but. Copy-pasted rules text isn't 'newer' at all. The book itself may be newer, but 4th and 4a use the exact same rules, so its not really updated at all.

Well, since neither one has been errataed to change that in particular, and since Arsenal was errated to include a large change to an example simply to change a bod 2 drone with a mount to a bod 3 drone with a mount, and since SR4a is newer, it still holds. There really isn't any way to tell if the rule in 4a was simply a copy+paste job, or if someone simply forgot to put the change in the arsenal errata, and so I'll go with the one that makes sense (And is technically the most correct RAW), which is the option that doesn't allow a drone to mount a weapon several times its size.

most of a technomancer's attributes don't actually add to very many technomancer-ish dice pools. except resonance, which i fully agree on boosting. like i said, you may think i'm crazy, but in my opinion spending the points to get your mental attributes high is generally not the best way to go.



well, it's up to the person grabbing the skill group, but i do still think it's important to carefully consider whether you are actually going to get a lot of use out of those skills. electronics is probably not too horribly bad a skill group to take if you consider personally handling data search to be a key element of your character and you want to handle hardware upgrades, but even then you can actually save points by choosing only the skills you feel you really need (software and computer), provided you don't mind ditching hardware and data search. this is especially true for many in the cracking group imo.... a lot of people will not be specialising in electronic warfare or cybercombat, so keeping a skill group in that area is likely not needed.

essentially, you need to carefully consider skill groups. if you were going to a car salesman, and he told you for an extra 500 dollars he can add 2,000 dollars worth of sound system, that's a really good deal... *if* you care about your car's sound system. if you don't care about the sound system, it's just a waste of 500 dollars, even though you'd be getting the stuff cheaper.

likewise, if you don't have much need for the 'extra' skills in a skill group, then you may end up paying extra BP for something you don't actually want or need, and even if you're getting a better deal on it, it still may not be worthwhile. i'm not saying you should *never* use skill groups, i'm saying you should look at the skill group and make sure you really do want to have at least 3 of the skills in the group at the high rating, and if you don't want at least 3 of the skills in the group then you should just take specific skills.

now, perhaps the above character concept is someone who loves to tinker with computers and spends a lot of time in the matrix searching for crazy new ideas they can incorporate into their tinkering. if so, then the entire electronics group is pretty important. and perhaps the concept includes matrix warfare in all forms as a key element, and thus requires both electronic warfare and cyber combat to be at high levels.

but then again, maybe it's supposed to just be a kid who escaped from a corp (btw, horizon isn't actually known to do Bad Things™ to technomancers, you may wish to try mitsuhama if you want someone with a really bad reputation) and has appropriate skills for that. obviously, it's not my choice to make, but it's something to consider.

Well, its like this.

Groups: Cracking+Electronics 4: 80BP.
Hacking 4, Electronic Warfare 4, Cybercombat 1(because as a TM, a threaded Attack program makes up for the dice)
Software 4, Computer 4, Data Search 1(because as a TM, a threaded browse makes up for the dice. An analytical mind gives you two free effective levels. you have analytical mind, right?), Hardware 1(because not defaulting is good, and occasionally you need to mess with maglocks)
4+4+1+4+4+1+1=19x4=74BP.
As a TM, you need to shave points wherever you can. 6bp an mean the difference between starting with a car and a good lifestyle.(for the starting cash bonus), or other good things like SURGE 1.

If your GM lets you buy/split groups in character creation, take Cracking+electronics 1(20bp), then bringing the important skills: Hacking,EW, Computer, Software to 4(48bp) is the best bet, at 68BP.

You know, i had an interesting idea. Lets say A TM is going to take some essence loss anyway(say, for a pain editor).
How cost effective would it be to give them some skillwires?, and put the hackskills on them? They don't exactly need high Skill ratings to be effective.

What? Yes there is.





Just because the book is newer, doesn't mean the rules are. In this case, its exactly the same as the previous edition. Arsenal has the rules expanding on the weapon mounts. If you're using arsenal's rules, you should use all of them, instead of going piece-meal on the rules halfway through. That's just silly. They were meant as an expansion to the limited rules already there.

Besides, its not like corebook mounts don't have their own problems(like holding 250 taserdarts or grenades or missiles).

I'm sorry, I got confused. Which was the silly option? Having Dragonflys with 250 rounds of Stick and Shock ammo as part of the response team or NOT having Dragonflys with 250 rounds of Stick and Shock ammo as part of the response team?

What? Dragonflies are minidrones. Dragonflies can't take weapon mounts.(the mod).

You are the silly option. Go read your rules. Specifically, Terminology: Size and Type on arsenal 131. Arsenal's weapon mount rules already accounted for stupid things, such as minidrones with LMGs.

Exceptionally ineffective because you can't get the TM version of hacking/computer/other in skillwire form.


And just because the rule says the same thing in the old and new book doesn't mean the new book is wrong. I'm fairly sure alot of other rules stayed the same. Does that mean they're all wrong too?

And like I keep saying, read that example that they went through alot of effort to change so that it didn't include a mount on a drone/vehicle with a body of less than 3. I don't think they did that just for kicks. Much more likely they'd intended to errata the rule and it just got left out by mistake, and they haven't gone back and changed it yet.

The other possibility is that they intended it to be something like 'round up if it is above 1' so 1 and 2 body stuff don't get any, but 4 get two.

P.S. I can't wait to get my Entertainment Systems Falcon modified with a concealed LMG with 250 rounds of ammo in it via your rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

No, it doesn't mean they're wrong - it just means you need to take catalyst's fucked-up shadowrun 4.5 edition, and their lazy-ass lack of errata with a grain of salt, and actually think about it.

Second, which example, exactly? People keep saying about an arsenal drone size/weapon errata thing, but can't say exactly what it is. I'd like to look at it firsthand. So where can I find it?

And yeah, round up if its above 1 would make a bit of sense. But, body 2 drones(per the size table) go up to dog-sized. and body 3 drones go from dog to motorbike sized. I think i'm okay with a dog-sized drone having a gun, even if the line is a little blurred.

You actually can't modify the falcon like that. It requires Gm approval to modify, unfortunately. Though sticking an LMG turret on a wheel chair is an awesome use of the Steed.

@'Udoshi'


Take a close look at the numbers. If with breaking up, we are talking about 12 Points saved. This means 3 Skillpoints.
Thats not that much. (By the way is the rule of max hits=skillrating*2 a house or optional rule?
But if you are going at it from the minmaxing point of few: Why having a "good" lifestyle or a car?

And with SURGE 1 we get to the point if this is in or out of the game.

By Raw you would not be allowed to use them for Technomancerstuff so... limited

@'Udoshi'


Take a close look at the numbers. If with breaking up, we are talking about 12 Points saved. This means 3 Skillpoints.
Thats not that much. (By the way is the rule of max hits=skillrating*2 a house or optional rule?
But if you are going at it from the minmaxing point of few: Why having a "good" lifestyle or a car?

And with SURGE 1 we get to the point if this is in or out of the game.

By Raw you would not be allowed to use them for Technomancerstuff so... limited

well, 6bp is 30 grand in cash. A technomancer can pretty easily turn that into a lifestyle with a Resonance Well or In Tune(+2 to all resonance tests while physically in your home), or a car with Amenities to live out of (such as a van, or rover 2068).

Its like half a page worth of the two page errata Hmm, actually it is smaller than I recalled. Anyway, page 2 of the errata, changing page 105. They go through effort to change it from a body 2 drone with an LMG to a body 3 drone with an HMG to demonstrate something that should suffer recoil. Of course that breaks the rules even more (now that I think about it) because under neither interpretation can a body 3 drone have an HMG because that requires a reinforced mount which takes up two mount slots.
Unless we're talking about a great dane sized pitbull when we're talking about 'dog sized' I still don't think something that size is going to be able to totally handle the recoil from an LMG. Mount it? Maybe. Not get tipped over whenever it fires on full auto? Doubtful.

You actually can. It requires GM approval to modify and still have look like a real animal.
It also lets you convert chargen money into in game money more easily, which is generally a nice thing to have a little nest egg starting out.

yes, 12 BP is 3 skill points. it can also buy 12 points of complex forms, 12 points worth of contacts, 60,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , or various combinations thereof (could also potentially be used for anything else in chargen, obviously). essentially, the point is that 12 BP in one place may not get you an awful lot, but it can potentially get you an awful lot someplace else.

Please do a re-read of this thread.

On pg 1, the Ard3 is arguing that a Dragonfly can have a weapons mount by RAW pointing to pg 147 in Arsenal. It's then questioned what rule (round up or down) is correct, i.e. does Anniversary win or does Arsenal win since neither have errata that specifically covers this.

What you're bringing into this is a third rule (Yay) that indicates that under either set of rules the Dragonfly (proposed on page 1) isn't legal under either rule set.

So at least that silliness is dealt with.

When I made my first post I didn't realize that drone has to be at least Small(B3) to get that mount. I was wrong, can't have dragonflies with guns. Thats the end of discussion in my point of view. I will still buy them for scouting purposes when I get the money. And maybe those LEBD-1s for fighting.

For skillgroups, I have them at 3, so splitting 3, 3, 1 and 3, 3, 1, 1 costs exactly the same as taking both groups at 3. So no splitting. It is my first matrixuser and first time this GM is running SR so I want to have by bases covered, just in case I need them.

Nothing wrong with that...

Personally I like dragon flies with the antitheft system. Hehe, zat.

Agreed.

But that doesn't work either. Standard size mods can't go on minidrones.

Believe, me i tried. There was a great big OH DAMMIT moment when I realized I couldn't use a small swarm of Anti-thefted, laser-linked spyflies as a sort of reverse bugzapper security system for a car. You know, park it, deploy the flies, zap anything that gets close. Makes sense, right?

And it totally doesn't work.

could you at least mod their armor with shock frills?