Another Matrix question. If you are running in VR can your persona interact with someone connected to the same node in AR? So, for example, Alice is accessing a library in AR can Bob's persona appear even though he's running VR but accessing the same node (assuming Bob has found Alice's icon etc.).

Everyone's icon (not persona, but it's basically the same thing) is there regardless, yes.

So would it make sense to have an AR-club have an alternate VR component or would that be redundant?

Hm. Well, I mean, a node is a node. You can access it however you like. I guess it's hard to dance while in VR, though? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well the idea is there's this really awesome AR-club in Seattle that has a VR-club component (which they talk about in Unwired p.17) that you can still access if you are unable to get to the "real thing." I was just wondering if ther ewas an option for VR patrons to access the AR section and vice versa.

Heh, just a -6 penalty. Hilarious mental image though.

Oh, I see what you mean, Krojar. Well, the AR-users are physically *in* the club, while the VR users would be seeing a reality-scaped replica. Part of that could indeed be making everyone's icon look like a person (dancing or not). There are no separate 'sections' unless you (that is, the node admin) set it up that way (and possibly that would require at least 2 nodes). AFAIK. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Oi Chums,

I beleive that the V.R. Users would actually be projected out onto the dance floor through advanced holographic projectors, awesome totally wild V.R. persona and all, and could interact with anyone who was utilizing the clubs A.R. environment via glasses or cyber-eyes or what have you. There would even be simsense drinks for you to partake in for V.R. club goers. I hear some V.R. drinks even have hangover ASIST programs included for the real effect. Though you would have to figure out how to get your clothes to smell of ciggarettes and vomit on your own. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

Projected users: nifty. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Kind of a kitchy, novelty gimmick, but yeah, sounds doable.

I understand how that's confusing and I'm not really sure there's a RAI answer for that question. I've also asked myself what does a VR persona see when he sees another user who is accessing the same node through AR. I mean it ultimately depends on the sculpting. I tend to see the AR user to be in more of a chat room and might have a little window that would show you just one view of what the VR sculpting of the inside of the node would look like... AR interacts with nodes and with other icons in the matrix more like how i'm interacting with dumpshock forum but with much more multimedia thrown in....but still i have to at least mentally select windows around and i'm manipulating visual icons. Maybe a VR user would see you more as a member on list of icons rather than a fully interacting persona icon of someone who is also using VR. For cybercombat...that's tricky...cuz how does a list entry attack a VR agent icon? That would make a good case for the VR representation of an AR user would just be the same as his VR icon...but just not as animated...it has some automated movements like say a video-game mob....and would fight as such....and then when you pop into VR...a third party would see your icon spring into more spontaneous authentic action.

On another note, I still wonder how VR is actually faster for all tasks compared to AR...for example posting to dumpshock...let's say i do it from AR and then from VR...i'm stilll limited by how fast my brain can compose a message.

Let's just say typing up this whole post takes a complex action...well in 1 turn (3 sec)...in AR I could compose 1 post and in VR I could compose 3 posts in the same time....but composing is composing....it's how fast my mind works. I feel both AR and VR would have instant thought typing, so what would account for the difference in speed? Any thoughts from anyone?

My only idea is that in AR...files are really stored in some sort of ASCII code ...where the meaning can only be deciphered by a user through visual reading of words if you're using AR glasses....or if you're using a sim module, direct projection to the visual cortex. In VR the visual cortex is not even involved if you read a "text file"....the whole meaning of the author is stored as neural network information and it automatically writes the same analogous neural network to the "readers" brain. I.e. you basically store thoughts unfiltered by visual processing so it's much more instant. However if you try to access a VR "text" file in AR it is automatically translated to "ASCII" to be actually read by the visual cortex and then interpreted by the higher functions of the brain. That's just an idea i had. Basically it cuts out the middle man and goes straight to the neural representations of pure thoughts in the brain.
...of course those thoughts in this case would be word thoughts....so it stores the word "bird" not as a 4 letter english word but as the concept of a bird which somehow i guess advances in neuro-science would show has an invariant neural representation that can be understood by all metahuman brains.....almost like chinese characters. To actually store the meaning of the post would be a waste of storage space because it's more efficient to let the meaning of a sentence to be formed in the brain instead of being preformed in computer format and then shot to the brain.

Oi Chums,

I had the same question a while back. I think that, like Inca said, it would depend on the sculpting of the system. But an A.R. user woud have to have an Icon of some sort for the V.R. user to interact with or at least identify as another user. So where I have an awesome silver, clown, bat, dragon persona the A.R. user has a generic green stick figure.

As far as what the A.R. user sees I think it would be very much like what we do today on the web. Web pages and the like with the addition of lots of 3-D interaction. When the A.R. user starts slinging code thats exactly what he would see. Code. He has Icons that depict his hacking progs and then the actual lines of code for the node he is trying to crack. Go V.R. and it all gets an Icon and it's back to how it was sculpted to look in the first place.

Holo-projectors are not necessary, as the AR overlay of the meat customers can display the icons of the VR guests as AR objects without trouble, and either add sound overlay if you're wired for it or add pop-up texts as needed.

In the parallel virtual reality, the icons of the meat customers can be displayed and animated according to their body's position/gesture/speach for the benefits VR users and bingo, everybody can interact (at least socially) no matter if they are physically present or simply connected.

Basically, yes. The idea is that AR is direct output, but the input flows in through the normal visual channels, whereas VR is direct input and output. It bypasses the perceiving step and arrives as pre-interpreted information. ..which is why ASIST and hotsim are so potentially dangerous for brainwashing purposes. Your brain is being bombarded with information which it doesn't process so much as integrate.


Also, the VR in AR club sounds familiar. Closest I could find was the Dante's Inferno entry from Unwired's Sample Systems section. Could swear that I read something about people dancing along with ARO versions of virtual club goers....

I've been thinking about this too. I imagine it like this:

A part of the Matrix is devoted to AR; that's the part that links online content to specific physical coordinates. Like a game world map you can walk around on. People with AR perceive that part of the matrix around them, a bit like astral perception.

VR users project their icon around the place, and to AR they look a lot like magicians projecting into the astral, but in this case into AR.

Likewise, VR projectors can see the AR of any place they're projecting to, including everyone who has an AR "skin".



To make all this work out reasonably well, most people need filters, because otherwise a place could get really crowded if a lot of people show up in VR, like at a concert. So people would only see the people "relevant" to their interests, and perhaps use profile codes to limit who'll bother to see them. All this can be played with by hackers of course.

Well, I imagine the "max occupancy" of the club would actually be somewhat lower than the actual occupancy to allow VR users "room" (though the number of VR users who wanted access to the AR floor would be capped as well). Assuming that anyone with VR was only allowed to access the AR floor if they had Metahuman icons, how would one avoid "clipping"? It seems that, from the description of AR "pets" and other things, this wouldn't be too much trouble.

This post has been edited by Krojar: Sep 1 2010, 12:33 PM

In my mind the interaction between AR and VR is relatively simple as long as both have some form of contact with each other.

If we assume the AR user is either troded in or using a combination of gloves, buds and glasses, I cant see it being difficult for the node in question (assuming it overlays the physical location) to give the correct overlay of a similar user who is meeting via VR.

I was watching the third resident evil movie a couple of nights ago and they have a couple of scenes in a boardroom with a setup that could easily be mirrored in the SR universe. In the movie you have a boardroom set up with a large desk and a number of chairs around it. Multiple locations all have the same set up and each see's a holographic representation of the others within their own room. This enables a multi person conference without needing to be there.

In SR a similar setup would be enable by a combination of VR and AR using a simple setup. You would again have the recreated room in each venue (for the AR users) but instead of holographic representations it is a simple overlay viewed by the normal means (glasses, cybereyes or troded in). The counter effect would be someone in VR entering the node which would give them a virtual recreation of the real room and fill it with the icons of the other users.

A club location set up that way is also plausible and in some respects follows the write up for Dante's which says the nodes are based on the real club and even the real club uses AR overlays for some of the dress up effects on different levels of the club (flames and such).

edit for spelling

Yeah, there'd definitely need to be an Icon dress code.

Still, some hacker might bust in using a 10-foot-tall dancing penis as his icon, just to grief people. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

That's what Reality Filter is for, right? Or VR-Scaping, or something like that. Whatever it's called. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

great thought. with enough VR IPs i can go dancing with all my girlfriends the same night.

the nice thing about VR is that bouncers do not need to be brutes.

I could see SR corps do it in similar ways. Hell, virtual board meetings have been a staple of cyberpunk-related scifi for ages. One of the robocop movies (or tv series) had the OCP board meet via rotatable displays rather then chairs.

Or how about a real life example? http://www.coolest-gadgets.com/20100826/ntts-troom/

VR (virtual) in a AR (physical) club. Virtual ghosts in a physical world. Second class citizens. Possibly banned. Definitely limited in interactivity.
AR (command) in a VR (mental) club. 'bots in a world of players. Second class citizens. Possibly banned. Definitely limited in interactivity.

I like your idea, that's pretty cool, stylistically. However, if everyone in the club, or a lot of people in the club, were using AR, there'd be no need for the incredibly sophisticated and expensive holograms. Wouldn't/Couldn't the persona of the VR attendee be projected into their AR? An interesting question, obviously. I can definitely see the benefits that virtual attendance could have if you're using the place for a meeting, or you're a creepy stalker, lol. But it seems like it would only actually be "fun" if you were into people watching. In the end, I went to clubs to interact with people. If you were looking for cybersex, it seems like there would be more dedicated Matrix locations for that. The dangerous line a club promoter would walk would be that people go to bars to interact and mingle and well, let's be honest, get drunk and take somebody home. If a sizable percentage of people are only "there" virtually, it could have a negative effect on the vibe. Clubs thrive on the intimacy factor that forces interaction. There's a local club here that comes to mind. Great location, very nice, very clean... always empty except for when they have drink specials. And it's because their layout lacks that closeness. An interesting thought.

Still, liking the visual. Would look cool in a movie scene. And the last line made me laugh.

It's not just clubbing; you could go to any number of places virtually, like political rallies or pop concerts. The nice thing is that venue capacity can be "virtually" inflated this way. Multiple VR icons in the same physical space aren't really a problem, you just use a filter to only see the other people you want to see.

The amusing thing is, the people of the Sixth World already know about astral projection, through Karl Kombatmage trids if nothing else. So when this technology is implemented, they'll be sure to note the similarities.