Ahem, physics. Familiarize yourself with them. They aren't going to be defeated in 60 years, lol. For an assault rifle round to travel the 550 meters that its extreme range allows, it leaves the barrel at 3100 fps. The round would have to withstand the impact in order to deliver its shock.

http://posterous.com/getfile/files.postero...tion_bullet.gif

And you probably shouldn't hop on the bandwagon for theoretech so quickly. They apparently only successfully tested the round in 37mm (yeah, that's a grenade launcher sized round), and there's been no news from the company in like five years, lol. That. and their website is defunct. Come on son, linking a press release from 2004 as a source?

I offered the link to the XREP. That's what a plausible Stick & Shock round would be like. The 100m range they claimed for ShockRounds? Not in a pistol caliber, that's for sure. Problem is, when you're trying to propel a round that far, the velocity it has to travel at increases, which sorta defeats the purpose of a less-lethal round if it is going to kill somebody with kinetic energy at close range. Assuming we suspend disbelief and believe a company would develop a round with LtL capability but not care that it had to travel at lethal velocities, the round still has to be constructed of Unobtainium so that it isn't completely flattened/fragmented upon impact with its target and destroyed. That ShockRound assumed the projectile would deliver a one time charge, not the pulsing charge of S&S. So, barring the discovery of Unobtainium, the round has to travel at greatly reduced muzzle velocities. And you still have the problem, even if the miniaturization of the tech becomes plausible, of the action not cycling in a semi-automatic weapon due to an understrength propellant charge.

Don't see the problem? LOL. There's no way it could even theoretically work. It's pure, unadulterated fantasy, and it doesn't even get the "It's magic" hand wave. You're more likely to express into a troll in a few years than for Stick & Shock to ever become a viable technology as written in the rules.

No it doesn't. But then again, SR4 has weapons designed by people who don't know anything about weapons. I'm not debating 4e rules. I'm telling you the tech wouldn't work. This isn't about game application, it is about theory. The reason why I denoted that a round like the XREP would force a shotgun to be SS instead of SA is that the description of the round explicitly states that it won't cycle a semi-automatic shotgun. Thus, for a "plausible" re-write of the S&S to represent a shotgun utilizing taser rounds, it should include that the weapon is restricted to SS.

This isn't surprising. A lot of less than lethal rounds won't cycle semi-autos. The M1014 for example, was rejected by every branch of the US armed forces except the Marine Corps in part because it wouldn't cycle non-lethal ammunition and the charging handle is on the right side of the weapon, making for an awkward motion to have to manually pull it back for every shot.

Along what Kruger says, I thought some time ago about this houserule :

-Increase the price and availability of the stick and shock
-Give it the regular round damage, and the 6S(e) come as a bonus and is resisted separately

The only problem being, it will most likely make it even more overpowered (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I think you are making an assumption that may not hold true. You are assuming that real world physics (or at least your projection of real world technology 60 years forward) operate the same manner in the Shadowrun world.

Indeed. When playing Shadowrun, familiarise yourself therefore with Shadowrun physics where SnS works. Free your mind.

Your failed attempts to be clever are noted. Try and contribute something valid or useful, or just say to yourself "I don't care that it couldn't work, I'll use it anyway."

Besides, the "60 years from now" excuse is garbage anyway. Bad science fiction writers sixty years ago said we'd all have flying cars and practical jetpack technology by now. No reason bad science fiction writers can't predict something impossible in Shadowrun 4e. For every technology we can point at and show how it has advanced in leaps and bounds in the last half century, we can show another that hasn't. Weapons technology, if anything, should be pretty much the kicker. The basic design and function of the modern projectile weapon hasn't changed in the last hundred years, and the physics behind it hasn't changed in the last ever. Shadowrun is still grounded in the same basic reality we are, as evidenced by the way the sourcebooks have always tried to offer explanations for how all the various cyber and bio technologies work. Some things are magic. Everything that isn't magic in Shadowrun has conformed with real world laws, or at least tried to offer reasonable explanations of the tech that allows for the bending of them. That doesn't suggest in any way that Shadowrun is trying to present some kind of gonzo bizarro world.

Free my mind. What a joke. If you're willing to completely shut yours off, go ahead. Some of us enjoy higher cognitive function. I never said you had to stop using Stick & Shock. I just said that it cannot work and that the suggestion of pretending it didn't exist was the one I agreed with.

Physics in the Shadowrun universe does not necessarily function the same way in the real world. Your failed attempts to be clever are noted as well. Try and contribute something valid or useful, or just say to yourself "I don't care that it could work, I want to change it anyway."

Indeed, free your mind. Not a joke. But if you're willing to completely shut yours off, go ahead. Some of us enjoy higher cognitive function. I never said you had to use Stick & Shock as it is printed. I just said that it can work and that the way certain technologies work in Shadowrun may not be the same in real life.

Every time I think I've already met the worst posters on this forum, someone new pops up and with even less capability for coherent argument construction or mature discussion.

Fair enough. You win. Your rock solid argument grounded in "because I said so" has taken me completely by surprise and left me toothly unarmed for further discourse. You really showed me. Damn son, the "Your demonstrated superior knowledge of general physics and ballistics is no match for my six year old child style mimicry and absolute obstinacy" tactic is impressive and overwhelming...

So, this guy discarded, is there anyone who would like to discuss this topic intelligently? I'm willing to field questions from people who won't immediately resort to childish "Nuh uhs" if you don't understand all or part of why Stick & Shock technology isn't feasible with modern tech, or even documented and accepted Shadowrun tech that isn't Stick & Shock ammo itself (as in, the proof cannot be the existence of the item in the rulebook alone, lol).

Or, perhaps, someone with far greater working knowledge of metallurgy and physics than myself who can offer up a reasonable hypothetical model for it?

Seriously? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) Can we get back to examples or ideas that stay on topic

All I'm saying is that I'm imparting useful and practical knowledge for players and GMs who would find it useful to run campaigns that are more realistic and believe Shadowrun is grounded in the same basic reality we are, just with some added supernatural elements. The players and GMs who don't have any use for that information as it pertains to their game can simply set aside that knowledge but at least emerge from this thread a little more knowledgeable.

toturi. you are imparting douchebaggery just for the sake of being a douchebag. And that's really not very constructive or helpful.

Like I said just before, I believe something like SnS is possible in 60 years time, but I seriously doubt it could be non lethal. At best, it'll add some electrical shock to a lethal bullet, taking out the opponent quicker.

that could be something like

DV -1 AP +1, resist normaly, all net hit/called shot rules apply there, and a fixed 6S(e) with the same rules as current SnS

Personally, I don't consider SnS to be that big a game breaker as some people make it out to be. Sure, the fix damage value is nice, and -half impact armor is pretty sweet too. But let's see against who it really matters:

Low-level mook (e.g. Go-Ganger): those guys probably have 6/4 armor (lined coat). Assuming you're wielding a heavy pistol, SnS effectively offers +1DV and -3 AP. That's good, but not really a big deal; those mooks are going to loose anyway.
Mid-level mook (e.g. soldier): standard armor should be 9/8 (camoflage suit + helmet). This time, we're using assault rifles, since the opposition is heavily armed as well. SnS offers -5 AP. That's slightly better than APDS, but since we're talking about soldiers here, a +3 Nonconductivity would be in order, effectively reducing the AP to -2. That's balanced, and not entirely screwing the SnS player over.
High-level mook (e.g. Special forces): SWAT/Light Milspec results in 14/12. Again, assault rifles are used. Against armor of this magnitude, SnS really begins to shine, effectively offering -8 AP. Since these are top-of-the-line guys, nonconductivity 6 is reasonable.

Essentially, what I do to balance SnS is to give higher-tier opponents a scaling non-conductivity. The importance is scaling; a flat Nonconductivity 6 for all opponents is lame and passive-aggressive.

Kruger & Toturi: Tone it down guys. Kruger your knowledge of physics and real world military is useful (and i've enjoyed it in other threads) and you're spot on about the feasibility of stick and shock ammo in relation to our world in my opinion, based on your evidence and reasoning. I think Torturi does have a point though. SR may say it continues on from this world and mimic our physics but in a world where magic suddenly exists and elves and other races mutate from humans... well, physics may have subtely shifted too. Sure there is nothing that explicitly states it nor anything that states stick and shock ammo uses some special technology that ignores conventional physics or has magical properties or something but it could do. I am essentially saying you both have an argument therefore. I just wish you'd both be a little less... sarcastic about putting it across to each other.

I think the point that SR isn't this world is a useful one. It doesn't have to completely follow real world physics or anything really. It's up to the GM and his interpretation of the setting. SR doesn't have to explain itself - its fictional. It's like trying to make sense of Star Trek or Star Wars. Light sabres and teleporters... give it a rest. You have to have a little suspension of disbelief. However, I think Toturi you are missing Kurger's point entirely and his is a useful one. For the GM who wants to interpret the SR world as a continuation of this one and to assume physics are the same and things are consistent with this world unless through magic or some other anomaly... then yeah, stick and shock technology would not be practical as described. Nor implementable as ammo for most weapons that works near identically to normal ammo except shocking the victim and as a continuous effect.

It's up the GM how they view SR and its physics and weapons. You can always argue that everything in the books is fine even if it wouldn't ever work in this world. If you started to make a fictional sci fi game too realistic according to physics and conventional current understanding of technology then you'd probably be ruling most stuff out. Kruger is aware of this however and even states that at least SR attempts to explain away some of its more novel technology such as cyberware. So I have to agree with Kruger overall - please be more constructive and not just attack Kruger's point that SR in regards to stick and shock ammo doesn't follow real world physics. Your point about it not having to - that's up to the GM and doesn't refute Kruger's point at all.

Further on topic and as an aside: I think Stick and shock is fine myself. It's juse a useful tool the GM can add to make an encounter more challenging for players and something for players to be aware of - and use themselves. If you pick up nonconductivity armour it's not too bad. If you really want to tone it down in games, why not offer an armour upgrade or item that completely nullifies stick and shock? I dunno exactly how it'd work. Maybe some minor EMP field function you could switch on that only barely emits from the fabric/item/armor and prevents stick and shock from triggering its effect? It wouldn't prevent against the impact damage though. And it'd be picked up on scanners and anything that detects EMP - you'd probably cause cameras and other items to go fuzzy if you get really, really close. Still, I think stick and shock is all up to the GM. If they want it and don't want to screw you over you just have to trust them. If they use it without knowing its potency and its overpowering in your game (perhaps because none of the players have nonconductivity or weak body) then they can just decide to use it less. If they want to use something overpowered to screw you over they are a bad GM and just be glad they aren't arming all the gangers with gauss rifles

Normally I wouldnt say S&S is to much of a issue particually in the game I'm in, but putting abit more thought into it there is one simple answer

Net hits do not increase damage (only confirm you have hit)
So if your firing a light pistol yes you get a power boost but a lucky roll with three net hits isnt takign you to 9S your still at 6S.
Granted it is a fairly major change but I think its a option that could be usable.

If we assume the round is mostly used to subdue someone safely without killing them then knowing that for most people one round will leave them dazed and possibly on the floor but two rounds will leave most people knocked out but mostly unharmed seems fair. It also would get rid of some of the silliness of a shot getting four or more net hits and suddenly a single shot does more damage then is possible to believe.

I like this solution. I also like the SS house rule. It's a special ammo, with some potential benefits and with these rules also a couple of drawbacks.

Although with tasers already in the game, I would almost be inclined not to allow SnS in my game (even if they exist in the real world today). So if PCs want to stun the bad guys, they need to bring a tazer or stun baton in addition to their guns. Bumping up the cost and availability would possibly be enough to limit their use or at least have the PCs consider carrying a secondary stun weapon.

Or using the gel rounds. Well, they've been pretty much nerfed a lot (-1 DV now isn't it ?) but still relevant if you want to knock the bad guys without killing them.

(-1 DV now isn't it ?)
Right
DV-1 /AP +2
(from the german erratta'ed Ed)

with a confirming Dance
Medicineman

The fact that you consider force 4-7 spirits "weak" is kind of disturbing.

Once upon a time, Ex-Ex used to be +2 DV -2 AP. No one complained about SnS back then.

After Ex-Ex got nerfed, everyone turned to flechette, which in turn got nerfed. I wonder what ammo type will be next after SnS. They should really start nerfing regular ammo; I mean, it's a steal for what it does!



Thing is, they are. Force 6 and below is pretty much fodder for any opposition above ganger level, and Force 7 is barely cutting it.

Maybe it shines on anything that lacks armor penetration on the gun. Remember, SnS overrides the AP value for the gun, so your assault rifle's base -1 AP is removed when you use SnS.

If you compare it to APDS, you need to have 11+ Impact armor for SnS to provide more AP than a weapon with -1 AP using APDS.

If you're seeing 11+ Impact armor, your target is probably sporting 14+ Ballistic Armor. As far as shadow runners are concerned this is functionally in the mil-spec/spec-op/prime runner category. 6/4 or 8/6 is going to be par the course for most opposition for runners.

So on an assault rifle....
APDS: 6P -5AP (Target 6/4: 1 Ballistic, Result: 5.66P -- Target 8/6: 3 Ballistic, Result: 5P)
EX-Ex: 7P -2AP (Target 6/4: 4 Ballistic, Result: 5.66P -- Target 8/6: 6 Ballistic, Result: 5P)
SnS: 6S -half impact (Target 6/4: 2 Impact, Result: 5.33S -- Target 8/6: 3 Impact, 5S)

So let's be a bit intellectually honest here. The average grunt is going to be dead or KOed from two single shot rounds and that's just off the raw armor vs. weapon. An average body of 3 would reduce damage by 1 again, but there's a good chance that there will be at -least- one extra damage from net hits. So if your goal is to incapacitate (of which both a kill and a KO count), then it doesn't matter which you go with, and against lesser armored individuals your better with EX-Ex or ADPS. The other effects of SnS are negligible since they only matter after your action phase (though the extra -2 from electric damage would make incapacitation easier).

--



-1 DV, +2 AP, uses Impact rather than Ballistic, 4R, 30 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per 10.

I think the availability and price of gel rounds is too high. At +0 DV, +2 AP, uses Impact, the cost was perfect. You pay a small premium and your ammunition is -essentially- equal to regular ammunition (impact armor rates 2 points lower than ballistic on average). Given the drawback of -1 DV on gel round, I think the price should be kicked back to 20 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per 10.

Maybe you should look up what the word relative means or if you know that, practise reading thinks in contects.
The post i quoted talked about mighty spirits, which is somethink like force 10+, so compared to those they are weak.
And really force 7 spirits elemental attack does less damage than Defiance EX Shocker, so it is pretty pathetic thunderbolt. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

If it deformed properly under impact in order to deliver it's shock, that would work as well.

As an example, I'm thinking of the black talon, a bullet that is designed to deform in a very specific manner in order to do what it does.
If the contacts were on the inside of the talon, then deforming upon impact, either naturally or internally assisted, would allow the device to have it's payload on the inside, not the outside.

Increasing the availability to 13F looks ugly.. it's a mostly non-lethal weapon, why should it be Forbidden? One of the nice things about Shadowrun is that you can make a non-lethal fighter that's competitive with the lethal fighters.

That said, of course SnS is a bit nasty. I'm thinking more along these lines:
* SnS never increases the base damage of the weapon
* Take a long hard look at possible house rules for ItNW and AP
* Move price and availability up a bit, but not out of chargen reach
* Reduce the stunning effects of electrical attacks, and define clearly how nonconductivity works against that

Consider that AP -50% is only really insane against things with way too much armor; against Joe Schmuck with Body 3, Armor 6, Ex-Ex is actually more impressive. (+1 damage is equivalent with -3AP)

Finally, I'm a believer in Nonconductivity; it's one of the most common armor upgrades in my setting, because tasers are legal, available, affordable and effective.

The cost of the round isn't the same as the cost of DELIVERING THE ROUND ON TARGET- IE, the cost of training and equipping the user, providing care for them if injured in the fight, etc. That's what you should be using for comparison purposes. S&S is cheaper in that respect- because if you win the fight, your costs go down.

I would think that if you lost the fight, your costs would be zero.

Your next of kin, on the other hand... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Sure. The problem is, it requires not a suspension of disbelief but the entire discarding of it. For Stick & Shock to function, it either requires bullets made of some kind of super material that would not be deformed or destroyed upon impact with an immovable object, or you have to believe projectile technology has advanced to the point where the round would be able to detect a target and then almost instantaneously decelerate itself to avoid full strength impact. Using retro rockets I'm sure, lol.

I mean, one could try and argue that it uses gyrojet technology too, and therefore the velocity of the round is controlled by a miniature rocket to provide the continued thrust to move at relatively low velocity over a long distance. Just for the sake of argument, we'll explore that, lol. So now you have a projectile approaching at approximately 350 fps which is way faster than probable, but at least feasible. We're talking about a round traveling so slow that you can see it coming.

Like I said, even the slightest application of basic physics and rational thought processes defeats the concept of Stick & Shock. I was simply nice enough to give an expanded explanation for people.

I'm willing to allow Shadowrun science to bend reality a bit. But if the world still uses conventional firearms technology governed under the same laws of basic ballistic physics and this is evidenced by the fact that weapon ranges tend to be approximately the same as their real world equivalents and the descriptions of how the firearms work is the same. Stick & Shock wouldn't be a subtle shift in physics. It would be a complete refuting of it.

Use it or don't use it. But it is also okay to admit that it's probably just the result of it being thought up by a writer and approved by editors with no practical knowledge of weaponry and just thought it sounded cool. "Yeah, taser bullets! Sweet. It'll be like our own addition to the game and players like having new stuff to buy."