The corps in Cannon have market to those Billions of Potential Customers through appealing to those several thousand through out the canon of this game. I was discussing why it complicated to make suites that work, not comparing it. However I can see the parallel.

Corporations will market security-level suites to shadowrunners through Johnsons and fixers. What's good for IntSec is good for the people trying to breach it. Not the billions of potential consumers, but certainly the millions of sekuritee profeshionuls that runners love to hate.

Designing a B&E suite is the purview of black market street clinics, should they have the money and time to do the R&D. I could see the Yaks with Ryumyo's backing trying this tack, but the corps? Everyone's gagging for the Renraku Red Samurai suites or the Ares Firewatch combo.

K look at profit line. Most likely they will develop these suites for military and there company men so they will already have R&D spent regardless of their target group. In order to get there they will build gear that they can test first in runners, saves getting test subjects for there corp and any bad rep spin off (not that they care).

They recoup allot of the money that they spend on hiring the shadow teams in the first place (in fact probably making more, in PC generation the player starts of with up to 250,000$ without taking any qualities) say they spend 100K to 150K on cyber, how many runs does that take from a non-elite runner. They then have these great suite's lined up for their company men upgrading it a bit to keep the edge on their home court (say allow runners normal/alpha, and company men with alpha/beta maybe increase capacity or level). This is just a quick of the top of the head thoughts on how a corp would benefit from targeting shadow.

I take your point Karoline, I guess I really was being a bit too much of a nice-guy gm with that one when it comes down to it, ever since my group got ahold of RC and SM I have seen way too many spell slingers and adepts (a pity, I really like playing adepts myself) so maybe I was trying to overcompensate and get my guys to take an honest look at the tech side of things. I'm not going to go quite as far as you suggest but I am going to make mucle toner, muscle augment and synthacardium the core of it, and increase the cumulative nuyen cost penalties. Any suggestion for numbers on that last?

I suppose bioware is the wave of the future and all, but why not Muscle Replacement instead of the Toner/Aug combo?

I'd alow custom as in unipe perfect you youe suts at all delta and a 10% incraese in price too paying the desingers. It's not bad or good alos a real bitch to hire a tech or two to desing build and implat it for you. Add in addapsin and biocompatabilty for the most out of your package. A perfectly custom suit will just not exist unless you hire some one to make it for you. Though I can see some better ones existing for stuff.

"It is all part of the holistic approach Evo takes to making a New You."

Honestly I just didn't want to fiddle around too much wth mixing and matching, though a corporation could and likely would use whatever gave them the best bang for the buck. Might use that in the nw version since I am ging to be doing more or lss a full reboot of my world.

I suppose, I suppose. I'm always trying to make stuff work on a budget. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Unfortunately, muscle replacement is one of the most overcosted essence-wise of all wares. If it cost half of what it currently does, it would fill its designated role much better without being at all OP.

Again, they're *cyberware* suites, right? No bioware?

Edit: I goofed by not looking at the chart, I shall now hand in my nerd card

It is true. The rules for suites as they stand are clearly cyber only.

Starting to feel like the Fat kid on the sports team trying to get noticed so I can play with the Big boys lol (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Munchkin Cyber-ware: Taken as suite with discount of .9 (3.96) Total Cost: 114,525¥

1: Move-by-wire system (cyber ware) Level 2 [ESS: 3; cost: 85,000¥; +4 to reaction, +2 to dodge, +2 to initiative pass, Acts as skill-wire level 4]
2: Reaction enhancers ([cyber ware) level 1 (ESS: .6; Cost: 20,000$; +2 to reaction)
3: Cyber-eye (ware) level 3 (11/12) with Thermo-graphic Vision, smart-link, flash compensation, image link, eye recording unit, vision enhancement level 3, vision magnification (ESS: .4; Cost: 9,250¥)
4: Cyber-ear (ware) level 3 with Audio enhancement level 3, balance augmenter, damper, ear recording unit, sound link, increased sensitivity, spatial recognizer, select sound editor level 1 (ESS: .4; Cost: 13,000¥)

Looking at this we see a max starting package, maybe over the top would you allow this in your game for in PC generation. Just looking at it seems to be to much right?

But let’s say we add some background, down and dirty.

Starting PC’s player takes restricted Gear for the Move By wire sytem (-5BP)

PC now takes contact: Tyler McMahon (connection: 3/loyalty 4) R&D development at EVO,
Now Tyler just got wind of this suite coming out of development, gets word to his old friend that he knows this could help him as he busts into the shadow world.

K PC now knows this gear is in existence.

PC now takes Contact (connection 2/loyalty 3) Max Milller, who works for EVO shipping. PC contacts him and asks to see if he can make one shipment disappear for a few thousand ¥. Lets say 1BP worth (5,000¥)
OR
PC takes contact (connection 4/loyalty 3) Max Miller the Fixer and he arranges the same deal as above but now PC has a contact as a fixer

PC now has the gear, but what does he do with it.

PC takes contact Street Doc (Connection 3/Loyalty 3) Who performs the needed surgery, but needs to do some heavy on the Job training. Costs 1BP more (5,000$)

Now we have a PC that has an amazing background story, three important contacts that he will need while running, and some of the cost for the cheaper gear is subsumed in BP for the cost of doing Business and some BP for other Gear, stats, qualities, Skill will be used up on contacts.

This I would allow in my game, how about you?

Yep the only reason to take mucle replacement would be on a really odd bio heavy build. Even then its hardly good value. 60k for rating 4 bio in str and aglity 20k for it in cyber. but the essance diffrance is hardly close. If you wanted to pay up 60k on upping your str and agility let see how the compire. Well you can get that cyber at Alpha not standard so the 4 essence drops to a massive 3.2 while the bio still costs only 1.6 essence for 20k more. As I said only in a build very bio heavy would it be worth it as it would cost the same in essance and is cheaper. And assuming char gen its better as it only uses on restricted gear. How ever not many builds need to up both Strength and Agility equaly if at all. All in all you NEED to minmax for it to be worth thinking of.

Though in char gen and taking more than 3.2 in Bio it could be a smart move. Using the saved restriced gear for a Synaptic Booster 3 and adding some more bio platetet factorys or what ever works could just make you a good bio sam there and save you a bit of BP. Bus as I said you'd need to twink it a bit.

Or For Flavorflav reasons

I dunno, I really like Muscle Replacement. It's incredibly cheap for a big boost. You can keep your natural Strength low-ish, and get that high Agility you need to do anything.

@naga-nuyen:For me, it'd depend on who that package is being marketed to. MBW's are hard on people, a lot harder than wired reflexes. I can't see that being used for a lot of folk.

I like the additions, though. EVO heavy, but I do like them. It makes everyone interconnected, and gives a story hook if the project manager's boss wants to track that model down...

@Yera: I've always liked muscle replacement for that reason. It does what muscle aug/toner does without having to get both. Why wouldn't the augmentation already be toned? Why are you going back in to shape it up after slapping it in there?

Hell, why wouldn't it be a suite on its own since you're doing all that work to the same strands of tissue?

Muscle replacement is 1 essence per rating, where as Muscle Aug/Toner is .2 each for a total of .4

That's a HUGE difference in essence cost.

Lower the essence cost then?

On another note what do you think military/security suites would look like? Specifically for people like Green Berets, Delta Force, Red Samurai, etc. Like the real special forces types. The security suites in the book just don't seem good enough for them. I would try and throw one together but I'm away from my books at the moment and don't know the rules by heart.

Yes, but replacement has four grades to choose from to drop that down. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

It's not superefficient, but it can still bring the cost down some.

And it's good for a more grungy campaign where your PCs can't afford the fancy stuff yet. I bet almost every Street Sam to be bought MR.

Umm, bio has grades too

Yeah but Delta grade while a much cheaper .5 essence, is going to run you 200k
That's pretty expensive.

Yep as I sated in my post after a quick edit you need over 3.2 points in bio b4 for taking only alpha Mucle replacement is really worth it assumign as we normaly do that essance is >than nuyen that or it might be worth while longer term if you plan and ripping it out usinf the hole for something else and pickign up the bio later as its more pricy.

I think muscle replacement should be .5 essence, or .75 at most.