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 Sep 1 2005, 02:26 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 26-April 05 Member No.: 7,360  |
I'm a self confessed novice when it comes to firearms so bear with me.
Rotbart van Dainig is saying that with the new and larger threats the sixth world imposes there exists a market for larger and more powerfull handguns to counter that threat. Handguns whose power would be a close match for that of an assault rifle round, and given there is over sixty years in which to research that new power handgun its not unfeasable to say it will exist in the 2070's. Austere Emancipator is saying that even accepting there is a market for more power in 'self defense' handguns in the sixth world the laws of physics are interfering. The modern day handgun monsters like the Smith and Wesson .460 Magnum (and the Desert Eagle would fall into this category as well?) are already pushing the limits of tolerable recoil. In other words a handgun with more power in it than any of the current models would not be feasable, the recoil would be too great for accurate use. In addition to this assault rifles still outperform even the modern day monster handguns in terms of penetration, and there is no reason that power difference should diminish. So any leap in technology that lets handguns become more powerfull should also make assault rifles equally more powerfull (just as the regular citizen now has to worry about troll muggers, the military has to worry about dragons and other oversized beasties). Have I got the two sides of the argument right there? |
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Sep 1 2005, 02:29 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
I can give up some game balance for realism.
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Sep 1 2005, 02:30 PM
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#28
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Guests |
Ahem...Zen Shooter
10mm to .40 anyone? |
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Sep 1 2005, 02:33 PM
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#29
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Well, there is also the component of game design involved here. From a game design perspective, we may not want shoulder arms to go through armor like butter, but they should at least penetrate armor better than pistols do.
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Sep 1 2005, 02:48 PM
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#30
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
As I have been trying to explain, there's nothing stopping people from simply making more powerful handguns even now. In fact, people are making such insanely powerful handguns. In terms of kinetic energy, the .460 S&W Magnum revolver beats the M16A2 by almost 100%, yet the 5.56x45mm likelyoutpenetrates it because the bullet is so much smaller in diameter, different in shape, and deposits that energy so much faster. The .500 S&W (8-3/8" barrel) is about 1.6x as energetic as the 7.62x39mm out of an AK-47, yet the 7.62x39mm penetrates better because of the same reasons as above. To make handguns that penetrate better than assault rifles, you have to take the "Bigger and More Powerful" approach to ridiculous extents. And that difference in penetration was never intentional. It springs from the fact that rifles have to be accurate at very long ranges, while handguns just have to kill people at short range. Changes in the type of target have so far made no overall difference in the calibers used in these weapons, only in the types of bullets used. Additionally, the continuing spread of body armor in the military as well as the society in general has so far had significant impact on the types of bullets used in pistols and SMGs by militaries and LEOs, excluding Russia (who can't really afford to make such designs widespread) and some small European units.
In their RL incarnations, more like the limits of tolerable size. As huge and heavy as they are, they do not necessarily have punishing recoil. If they were small and light enough to pass as feasible combat handguns (which would be necessary for people to opt for them over shotguns, rifles and carbines), then the recoil would be on the limits of human tolerance. I've read that the small, light-weight .44 Magnums are some of the most punishing guns to shoot. A "combat .460" would be like that x2.5.
You well may. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Sep 1 2005, 02:53 PM |
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Sep 1 2005, 02:55 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 26-April 05 Member No.: 7,360 |
So it's not that Assault Rifles should do more damage than Heavy Pistols it's that Assault Rifles should have better armour penetration than Heavy Pistols. Thats your concern with the SR4 rules on firearms, yes?
And for the record I was not stating my own opinions in my previous post, I was trying to see if I correctly understood yours and van Dainig's arguments. |
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Sep 1 2005, 02:56 PM
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#32
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Not at all, those would simply be the normal Heavy Pistols in SR4, which are still less common than Light Pistols. Funny thing, none of those really rivals rifles.
Indeed, which is exactly why I never said it would be a good idea. ;) It's just an emotional choice.
As there is only one handgun of this kind presented in SR4, I don't see a big difference in opinion. |
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Sep 1 2005, 03:01 PM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Yeah, I just got carried away with something else and finished the message a bit short. The point of the first half of the message is to say that if that is indeed what Rotbart van Dainig is saying, then he's just plain wrong.
Depends of course on how, exactly, "Heavy Pistols" are defined: if they're at or above .44 Magnum-level (which I personally do not believe they are) while ARs remain closer to 5.56x45mm-level, then you could definitely argue HPs should do more damage than ARs. If, on the other hand, it's more like comparing 10mm Auto to 6.8x43mm Remington, then ARs should probably do as much or more damage with standard ammunition, and potentially a lot more with the right ammo. To be fair, my concerns with SR rules on firearms are numerous and varied. ;) |
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Sep 1 2005, 03:01 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 26-April 05 Member No.: 7,360 |
Perhaps the key sentence in there is "The recoil would be horrible, more than enough to damage your hands and your wrists, and forget about any follow-up shots." So, does the one gun in the SR4 BBB mention anything about dislocating your wrist when you fire? Is it a Semi Auto or are you only allowed one shot per round? If neither of these drawbacks are listed for the gun then that's probably where the opinions differ. |
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Sep 1 2005, 03:11 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237 |
[/I]You know, the SR3 assault rifle requires three more points of ballistic armor to fully resist than a heavy pistol (both firing standard ammo). I'd call that better penetration.
And if I wanted realistic firearms rules, I'd start a real long ways from assault rifle penetration. I'd start with that silly problem that you hit almost everything you aim at in any incarnation of Shadowrun. Fact is, most shots fired in a gunfight miss their targets. Even championship winning target shooters miss like crazy. SAS commandos miss. Everybody misses, no matter how high their skill level. It's unavoidable. In an average shootout, only one shot in three connects. And that is at a range of 21 feet or less. Screw armor penetration. If you gunheads [I]fix the assault rifles, but keep your target range mentality for the rest of the rules you've just screwed the game sideways. I'm only hoping SR4's resisted combat rolls will give this game a chance of coming closer to a realistic hit/miss ratio than any other version of Shadowrun ever has. |
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Sep 1 2005, 03:12 PM
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#36
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
.44 Magnum loadings can generate ~1000ft-lbs of kinetic energy from a 6" barreled revolver, compared to ~1260ft-lbs for an M16A2. In those terms of "power", it certainly comes close. And if I had to choose either a .44 Magnum or a 5.56x45mm to shoot someone (unarmored) trying to kill me, it'd be a tough choice. I'd say it "rivals" some rifles. Like I've said before, the .460 S&W and .500 S&W you left out from the quote are both far more powerful than any modern assault rifle, in terms of just about any formula currently used to estimate the lethality, "stopping power", or whatever else. Yet with full-caliber, non-armor piercing ammunition, they still don't penetrate armor as well as assault rifles.
As it happens, I made plenty of changes to the way ranged (and melee) combat played out in SR3, which lead (among other things) to a lot more misses than canon games would have enjoyed, I guess -- I've never actually played a canon game of SR3. I've not had the chance to tinker with SR4, it has not reached Finland yet. This is just one thing I'd like to tinker with, and since it happens to be the topic of this thread, I thought I might as well discuss it. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Sep 1 2005, 03:16 PM |
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Sep 1 2005, 03:13 PM
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#37
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Once again, from a game design prespective:
Almost all targets of interest to shadowrunners will be wearing armor. In SR4 a point of DV is roughtly worth 3 points of armor penetration. If heavy pistols did, say, 5 (0) and assault rifles did, say, 5 (-6) (comparable to DV 7 (0)), while this would not be completely realistic, it might be 'as much realism as your game design contraints allow'. SR2 and 3 had this completely bolloxed up, in that a light automatic rifle chambered in 10mm auto (or whatever heavy pistols were chambered in) was a superior killing tool compared to a rifle chambered in 7.62 x39 (or whatever). In that it both produced greater wound cavities and penetrated armor better. This is both bad game deisgn and bad 'realism'. [edit] The high miss rate in gunfights probably has several large psycological factors as well. The data I've seen os far suggests that 'psycological training' (for combat) can greatly reduce miss chance. The real problem is that no game has attempted to represent the psycological difficulties of combat so the combat miss chances they tend to produce will tend to be disporportionalty small. As writing a good set of rules to cover this (and explaining why we bothered to put these rules in the game) would be quite difficult. [/edit] |
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Sep 1 2005, 03:13 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 26-April 05 Member No.: 7,360 |
It sounds like it would be difficult to provide a single realistic damage code for a gun when it seems to be the ammunition that makes all the difference. Is there even a 'regular' ammunition load for assault rifles? I would assume the military would keep a single size round just to keep the logistics of supplying an entire army as simple as possible. But what about outside the military? And here I demonstrate my extensive lack of knowledge in firearms because I must also ask the question, how widespread are Assault Rifles outside the military? Do they see use by Special Forces units, police, SWAT, crazy surivalist types hiding up in the hills?, paranoid home defense focused civilians? |
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Sep 1 2005, 03:21 PM
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#39
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Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
So basicly we should sack what (crap) guns are in the book and make our own? I could do that.
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Sep 1 2005, 03:22 PM
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#40
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Which would make a Heavy Pistol, not a Light. ..nonetheless I was talking about SR4 scale - did you had already the possibility to compare? |
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Sep 1 2005, 03:23 PM
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#41
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
The short version is yes to almost all of the above. Special forces units tend to use full sized assault rifles or 'shortened' assault rifles (these days called carbines); both regular police and SWAT units occasionally use them, those both of these forces are typically better off with sub-machine guns, as the ranges they will be shooting at will be under 100 meters in almost all circumstances; Just about everybody in some parts of the world has an AK or an AK knock-off; and there are plenty of 'de-mobilized' military men who keep their service weapons; or when buying a weapon in civilian life, get the weapon they trained with. The standard round for assault rifles in military use is a full metal jacket (FMJ) round, which may or may not have a harder than lead core (steel, etc) for better armor penetration. In civilian usage, the rounds will almost creatainly be lead cored and may have an exposed lead tip rather than a fully enclosing jacket. |
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Sep 1 2005, 03:27 PM
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#42
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Prepare to be disappointed, then, except at very low skill levels. The SR4 rules make it easier than ever for highly skilled characters to almost never miss, and dodging has gotten a lot harder unless you give up actions to do nothing but dodge. |
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Sep 1 2005, 03:27 PM
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#43
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
There is indeed. Right now for the US Armed Forces that's the M855 5.56x45mm FMJ cartridge, and that (or something very similar, like the M193) is used in most specops units, LEOs, crazy survivalists and paranoid home defense people. Unfortunately, that's one of the weirdest cartridges around. To fully appreciate the weirdness of the 5.56x45mm, read this. The same effects are at play for most non-military rifle ammunition, except for the solids meant for big and dangerous game hunting. Caliber (which doesn't exist in SR...) aside, the bullet type of "Regular ammunition" is rather simple to define for assault rifles, since FMJs are not likely to go away any time soon. How it should relate to the "Regular ammunition" of handguns is much more difficult -- FMJs are hardly ever used for combat handguns out of the military, and few to none of the freaky fragmention-related properties rifle rounds may or may not exhibit are shared by pistol rounds. In short, terminal ballistics is a really complex field, but there still are plenty of easy generalizations which will come in very handy when simulating reality, such as in an RPG. One such generalization, and as good as generalizations get, is that rifles penetrate better than pistols. |
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Sep 1 2005, 03:29 PM
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#44
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
And to paraphrase Seiler, if you keep trading simple actions for your opponent's entire turn you can't lose. ~J |
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Sep 1 2005, 03:33 PM
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#45
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
You don't really need to. The concept of balance is an absolute contrivance of artifice. No one bitches about balance in real life. You have access to what you have. In a fight. you cowboy up and you deal with it.
True to a point. But when you're look at, say, that mainstay assault rifle caliber in the America, 5.56x45mm, you'll notice that the bullets are, by handgun standards, tiny and very light. A 9mm handgun round is quite a bit bigger around, and easily twice as heavy. The change in velocity, among other things, between a rifle round and a pistol round has a tremendous impact on terminal behavior. They're comparable within a certain scope and within a reasonably necessary degree of abstraction, but there are a lot of significant differences. |
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Sep 1 2005, 03:41 PM
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#46
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Uhh, what? You already agreed that a .44 Magnum could represent a "normal Heavy Pistol". What is this comment related to?
Again, I do not understand what you're getting at. I don't have the book, but I'm going with the assumption that Zen Shooter01 is not lying above and that Heavy Pistols do 5P (-1 AP) while Assault Rifles do 6P (-1 AP). |
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Sep 1 2005, 03:43 PM
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#47
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Actually, 'game balance' is a very important consideration when creating the rules for a game as you may not intend to model the real world. Allowing Mr. Alien Farmer to bounce bullets off his skin is obviously unrealistic, however if you are designing a particular sort of super hero game, then this is a requrement. So we must design the game with as much of a nod to realism as we can, while still keeping to our game desgn contraints. SR is generally baised toward having survivable gunfights. Having fully realistic weapons damage would not do, but the game can still be biased toward survivability while still not insluting anyone who knows much about real guns. |
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Sep 1 2005, 03:43 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
Nato uses typically the .223 rem or 5.57? cartridge, warsaw pact and other "commies" would be the 7.62x39mm. That's what the AK-47's and Chinese SKS both shoot. Those are typically machine gun rounds.
Bigger scoped rifles or older rifles (some marines in Iraq are using the M14), as well as the M60 used the .30-06 round. Russian bigger rifles use the 7.62x54R round. Mostly it's standardized with enough variety to make it interesting. 2070 body armor might well be equally protective of pistol and rifle rounds. Perhaps layered stuff that equally protects against fast and light or heavy and wide rounds? I'm not going to quibble. If I had the choice of being shot with no armor with a .45 or shot with no armor with a .223 I'd take the smaller rifle round any time. One thing to keep in mind is that the .223 moves fast and is small so it passes through armor easier. But it also passes through flesh easier without slowing down as much. This means lots of the energy is wasted out the back of the target. A round that stops in side means the body needs to absorb all that shock. And unless you bleed to death it's the shock that kills you. One if the biggest reasons we use the .223 instead of the .30-06 is that we can carry something like 2x as much ammo for the same weight. Game balance wise I think the SR4 system works fine though. When you 3 rnd burst with an automatic weapons the damage IS a lot higher than pistols. |
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Sep 1 2005, 03:48 PM
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#49
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
I'm going to enjoy watching you get savaged by the local "gun nuts". ;) |
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Sep 1 2005, 03:52 PM
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#50
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Mmm, blood in the water...
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