 Guns |
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 Sep 1 2005, 03:54 PM
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#51
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659  |
What's wrong with it? |
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Sep 1 2005, 04:03 PM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
The MP7 has been adopted by the German military, intended to gradually replace the MP2 (aka IMI Uzi). It is currently in use with German units operating in Afghanistan. In addition, Singapore has adopted the MP7 for its national police force and the UK has adopted it for the MoD Police. At the moment, Heckler & Koch is developing a new pistol (called H&K UCP) using the MP7's 4.6x30 ammo. This pistol is regarded as a potential successor to today's 9mm P8 (official German designation for the H&K USP) for the Bundeswehr. |
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Sep 1 2005, 04:07 PM
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#53
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
5.56x45mm NATO.
Russia(/SU) has been using 5.45x39mm for quite some time, 17 years before WP ended
You mean "typically assault rifle rounds and light machinegun rounds".
Not .30-06, that has not been used in the US Armed Forces since the M1919 machinegun was phased out. The M14, M21, M24, M40, M60, M240, etc. fire the 7.62x51mm NATO/.308 Winchester. To generalize, these calibers mostly find use in the modern military in sniper rifles and GPMGs.
Unfortunately that's just not how physics works. Smaller diameter projectiles possessing the same amount of kinetic energy will penetrate rather thin, (semi-)rigid objects (like armor) better than larger diameter projectiles. All armor would have to be magic, or made with some sort of super-hitech nanobots which (for whatever reason) make the armor better when hit with bullet shot from rifles.
No. See this and this, compared to this? Bullets can penetrate armor quite well and yet fall apart and cause very large wounds when hitting unarmored targets. Physics, huh? In case you want to dispel the rest of those myths from you mind, read this. "Absorbing all the shock" doesn't mean anything. What kills people is non-functional CNS. The way you achieve this is either destroying the CNS (brain or spine) or by stopping blood from getting to the brain, and the way you achieve the latter is by punching holes in the target, preferably near the major arteries and blood-bearing organs in the thorax. Bigger holes = better. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Sep 1 2005, 04:25 PM |
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Sep 1 2005, 04:21 PM
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#54
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Somehow I've managed to miss this. But then I've never seen any German soldiers with Uzis, either. The only mention on the HK Defense site is that KSK adopted it back in 2002.
Any numbers, how many the UK police has acquired or is planning to acquire? I have only seen UK police with MP5s, though that doesn't mean anything. If this is true, then I must say the top officials dealing with UK LE are dumber than I thought.
Heh. I'm sure they'll try to sell the concept, but I don't see it happening. Considering the lack of enthusiasm towards the FN Five-seveN, which has been out for some time now, it doesn't look good for such weapons. |
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Sep 1 2005, 04:23 PM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
The "commie" guns I like WASR-10 and SKS are all 7.62x39mm, so as a "redneck survivalist" my stockpile is pretty much standard. It's a broad generalization. So I was off by a few hundreths on exact cal's, the general concepts are all correct.
Who can tell what future armor will hold? Quibbling about AP and DV of futuristic weapons firing futuristic cartridges at futuristic armor is pointless (except for fun). The system is balanced enough that more armor = better and a bigger gun = better. Seems fine to me. Perhaps shaped charge ammo would work equally well in a pistol or a rifle. |
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Sep 1 2005, 04:25 PM
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#56
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Shaped charge penetration capability is (all other things being equal) a function of the diameter of the projectile, and in pistol and rifle calibers ought to be rather ineffective. |
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Sep 1 2005, 04:32 PM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
But do we know that future weapons rifles have a smaller diameter or we just assuming that since they do today.
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Sep 1 2005, 04:34 PM
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#58
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I wasn't aware the last messages had anything to do with concepts. ;) The name of the caliber was wrong, so I corrected it. I would have done the same had you typoed "i" for "o", if I thought that was at all central to the issue. In a list of calibers, I found the name of a caliber quite central.
Yes. Anything could happen. Maybe gravity will increase 100% and the equipment weights in SR3 were realistic (in a relative sense, or measured in pounds or newtons). Maybe the cornerstones of material physics were overthrown and objects now retain their shape better the greater the pressure on them is.
We assume so, because they're still used for the same role, and in that role a smaller projectile diameter is useful. Large bullet diameter = more drag = less range = bad thing for rifles. We assume assault rifles have relatively small bullet diameters because it makes sense. |
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Sep 1 2005, 04:39 PM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
But you're talking about making modern stuff only more effective in the future. Which I suppose is possible but there also could be a revolution in design which changes everything.
For all we know we could be talking about how smoothbore guns will never be accurate blah blah blah only to find out that in 2050 someone invents rifled ammo and guns. Maybe it'll be simple in the form of awsome recoil compensation systems that allow pistols to fire rifle cartridges? |
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Sep 1 2005, 04:43 PM
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#60
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
There is no hint of such a revolution anywhere in SR rulebooks or fiction. If there had been some sort of massive breakthrough in weapons technology in the intervening years, I should think it would be mentioned somewhere. Instead, all the rules concerning using, designing and getting weapons are written with the apparent assumptions that they still work more or less exactly as they do today.
You did not read through most of the thread, then? Pistols could fire rifle rounds even now, but there's no point, nor will there be.
This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Sep 1 2005, 04:45 PM |
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Sep 1 2005, 04:43 PM
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#61
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Sigh, then rifles would use the same recoil compensation systems, only bigger and better. And they would still be firing smaller bullets at higher velocities, as they need to be accurate at longer ranges...
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Sep 1 2005, 05:02 PM
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#62
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Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
Ben, simple fact. When it comes to bullets, bigger dosnt equal better. Given the (rather unfortunate) choice between getting shot with a FMJ .45 acp pistol, or a FMJ .223 rifle, Id take the pistol, thank you.
In a normal combat scenerio, rifle > pistol. End of arguement. Now, back to game mechanics. Yes, rifles in general should have better armor penetration and damage powers then a pistol. A Sub-gun should be near-identical to an equivelent pistol, with much better rate of fire, and slightly better range. And in responce to the shotgun/sniper rifle bit, they are both semi-auto stocked weapons. You hold them the same way, sight them (roughly) the same way. Deal. |
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Sep 1 2005, 05:20 PM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
The Uzi was/is (together with P1 and P8 pistols) the gun for vehicle crews and second-line troops. My favourite military pictures forum seems to be offline so I can't give any links but there are quite some pictures showing KSK operators, military police special groups and even ordinary grunts with MP7 floating on the internet.
I'm not talking about the regular police but the Ministry of Defense Police. The way I understand it's a special organization mainly tasked with guarding nuclear power plants. |
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Sep 1 2005, 05:38 PM
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#64
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
[OT rant] Yeah. Take a look at what's happening in New Orleans right now, and ask yourself how "paranoid" someone has to be to own a rifle for home defense. Packs of looters are roaming the streets with knives, machetes, pistols, clubs, etc, and gathering up whatever catches their eye. People are shooting at policemen and EMTs and firemen while they're stuck on rooftops and baking in the sun. A National Guardsman took one in the leg from a citizen of the nation he's sworn to protect and defend. Supply/rescue choppers are being fired on by the people they're on their way to help. Yessirree. Anyone who might want an old SKS or a semi-auto AK in times like these sure is "paranoid" allright. Here's hoping you don't grow up to be a powerful politician, with an attitude like that. ;) [/OT rant] |
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Sep 1 2005, 05:40 PM
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#65
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Sorry. Yeah, that would kind of explain it. If that's the extent of MP7's employment, then I'm not going to throw a fit. Seems it's still mostly used by special purpose units, which kind of makes sense. It is just the idea of seeing something like that being in widespread use by a military or a major LEO that freaked me out. |
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Sep 1 2005, 06:50 PM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
At some point it was planned to replace all SMGs and pistols in the German military with MP7... Found some pictures: German military police in Afghanistan another one German infantry displaying MP7 and new H&K MG4 SAW |
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Sep 1 2005, 06:56 PM
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#67
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Is that last one really just basic infantry, and is that MP7 that guy's primary weapon? If so, I just don't get it. I sure as heck wouldn't want to be stuck with that.
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Sep 1 2005, 07:04 PM
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#68
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
That certainly isn't what the manufacturer intended the weapon for, it is suppose to a secondary weapon. Well i guess primary for someone that isn't normally issued a rifle. But i don't see a medic badge on him or anything. |
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Sep 1 2005, 08:08 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
It's a squad demonstrating the current state of the Infanterist der Zukunft (IdZ) program ("Infantryman of the Future", our Land Warrior equivalent) - new armor vest, protective goggles, etc. The guy with the MP7 is the squad leader. The standard gun for troops actually meant to face an enemy is, of course, the G36/G36k. The squad leader is not meant to fight but command his squad, keep communication with the platoon... |
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Sep 1 2005, 08:45 PM
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#70
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Then why not give him a G36C instead of what I can only reasonably conclude is a sarcastic joke?
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Sep 1 2005, 09:31 PM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
Yeah, if he's squad leader, we should make sure that his equipment makes logistics as complicated as possible.
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Sep 1 2005, 10:14 PM
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#72
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Target Group: Members Posts: 16 Joined: 28-August 05 Member No.: 7,636 |
Well, i think that it is because the men in question are military POLICE. So they aren't equipped for military missions, but for police tasks.
As far as police goes, that's pretty heavy weaponry. OFf course they should have been equipped better for this mission, but i think that is what is the matter here. marc |
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Sep 1 2005, 10:31 PM
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#73
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
It'd be nice if that were true. In reality, MPs guard camps in hostile areas and run checkpoints. If I were doing that in Iraq, I'd shoot the lousy fucker who issued me an MP7 and take his G36C.
Also, Zen brings up an astute point. It's just goddamn dumb. |
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Sep 1 2005, 10:36 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 105 Joined: 28-August 05 Member No.: 7,637 |
who says APDS should kill more than Ex Ex? Oh, in SR3 it did, but this is SR4. Was there a note that said that APDS was intended to be the deadliest ammo? This is nothing more than SR3 love here. |
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Sep 1 2005, 10:37 PM
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#75
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
You are full of shit.
~J |
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