Dynamic Combat Options

[Dashifen]

[ruknabard]

I'm all for the "dud grenade" approach. Give them a real reason to sweat and rethink their tactics without having to be too harsh or use GM fiat to rectify any damage done.

Also, monkey-see, monkey-do works well in these situations. Have them team up with a veteran runner and let them watch how he works the battlefield. Alternatively, you could have them face off against that one remaining guard who has enough grit and guts to outclass them because of experience.

Not every runner is a Grammaton Cleric, so feel free to draw inspiration from great fight scenes you've witnessed. Sadly, I'll suggest such movies like "The Transporter" for their innovative action sequences.

Also, putting PCs in a hard situation where they're at a distinct disadvantage with no escape routes and no way to go but forward sort of "forces" creativity. Sacrificial buddies work great in these situations to demonstrate the "proper" way of confronting say, a sniper at the end of an oil-slicked hallway with nothing between them but a smattering of crates (conveniently sized so only one character fits behind each outcropping).

[Eryk the Red]

Your mileage may vary, but I don't care for the dud grenade. It has an immediate effect, but since there was never even a little risk, its not much of a lasting motivator. I like a live grenade, but with ample time to escape. Depends how much you want to scare them, I guess.

[FriendoftheDork]

Actually, in my group the problem is not PCs not using tactics, the problems is that PCs and NPCs with initiative 12 or less usually doesen't have time to act before the fight is over.

Ok, perhaps an overstatement, but still fights seldom last longer than 3 seconds! That makes combat very little cinematic, and although cover sometimes is used, as well as grenades of different kinds, it's usually bang bang and perhaps slash slash if Trog wants to use his spurs, and then the combat is over.

And the problem is not the challenge involved, most fights are do or die, if the PCs don't act fast and take out the opposition, the opposition could possible kill PCs.

I agree the penalties are not high enough for the highly skilled. Ok perhaps someone with pistols 6 and specialization SHOULD be mostly ignoring penalties for cover, concealment etc, but I'm a bit tired of PCs never missing a shot... and I don't think I've seen a glitch with a firearm even once!

I think this is somewhat a problem with the character generation, as it's too easy for players to make extremely skilled characters that always hits even when taking blind shots.

[Kyoto Kid]

[Apathy]

I would think that the PCs staying in place just gives the opposition (guards, Lonestar, etc) time to call in overwhelming reinforcements. The opposition almost always has more firepower if you give them long enough to get their act together - why would the runners want to wait around for that to happen?

[hyzmarca]

Downlaod videos of the North Hollywood shootout. Show the players what the robbers did right and what they did wrong.

[Aaron]

We've had a few relatively dynamic battles. Usually, it's because the terrain or circumstances are shifting (e.g. morlocks coming through a door, fight breaks out in a crowded dance club).

I handle what the bad guys do in a combat situation by taking a "motivation-style" approach. What do these guys want? Additionally, what do they think of their opposition? What are their expectations as to their own abilities?

So, for example, a free shadow spirit that thought it was invulnerable just floated out in the middle of the combat area, while the drone that was working with it kept trying to move for a better shot, following its orders to seek and destroy.

One thing I do to prevent the trench thing is to steal a page from my infantry leadership training and have an element try to move into a more advantageous position while the rest of the bad guys keep the team pinned. In theory, when both sides are trying this, combat can turn into a bit of a chess match.

[Riley37]

In my experience, bonus Karma is one of the most motivating carrots a GM can hand out, so give bonus Karma for good tactics and/or for asking questions that add detail and visualization to the scene. If there's an NPC that they'd like to impress, then have that NPC comment on good tactics.

If they cluster inappropriately, maybe the first grenade is CS or Pepper Punch rather than frag.

If video games really are a major source of their conception of combat, give them a tactical shooter game such as Rainbow Six. Better yet, take them to a paintball match.

On another hand, this is an example of the difference between PC skills and player skills. Heck, if I took all the time I'd RPGed a tech expert, and had spent that time instead on night school, I'd be able to do the cool stuff my characters can do. Do they have a strong desire not to learn tactics, to do things the hard way?

[Fortune]

[hyzmarca]

[Fortune]

You da man! :)

[Wounded Ronin]

SR4 is too newfangled and complicated for me, but I GMed SR3 for years. Sometimes if player characters were doing nigh-suicidal things (i.e. bunching together behind cover while enemies deployed grenades or what have you) I would say, "Make an Int (4) test". If the character succeeded I would say, "Your character, due to his background in military operations, realizes that this course of action is stupid, and furthermore that conventional wisdom states that a squad needs to spread out a bit so that the entire squad isn't taken out by one grenade."

And, yeah...if the PCs bunch up behind cover just have the enemies:
1.) Suppress the PCs with suppressive fire and delayed actions waiting to shoot anyone who moves into view from behind cover.
2.) Send a flanking party with grenades to get closer
3.) When flanking party gets close enough grenade spam the PCs.

That's realistic, anyway. Behind behind cover is great but if the enemy gets close enough they're going to nade spam you and make you die. So if you want to bunch behind cover like that you need to kill everyone who is trying to get close before they can do so.


EDIT: In terms of games I'd recommend America's Army as well as Rainbow Six, since another poster was talking about games.

Electronic Arts' SEAL Team is dated and emphasizes suppressive fire which doesn't work so well in SR BUT it does an excellent job of making you think about whether or not you're in hand grenade range, of thinking about how hand grenades make lots of people die, and lastly why SEAL teams don't like it when people notice them and begin firing multiple shoulder-launched rockets in their direction.

[laughingowl]

[Clyde]

Use the full defense option in ranged combat. When a character abandons their action to full defense they can still move - which makes it a really convenient time to do that.

[MaxHunter]

Fortunately, the people I play with are very tactical and combats get pretty dynamic and cinematic. Making the opposition use and abuse of the environment also help "colour" up the fights.

One thing I have observed is that it is possible to hack the players mind and implant a subtle suggestion to nudge them into using the environment (or anything else)

i.e. : "you lean against that [bold] old, ramshackle wall [/bold] looking for cover while gunshots send wood and wallpaper fragments all around you. Getting ready to move, you can hear the gangers' heavy boots on the wooden board [bold] right on the other side of your cover[/bold]. They are about to come in and finish the job."

Next action the dwarf shot the gangers through the wall with his predator loaded with APDS. Right after that, the surviving ganger used the hole to force-place his shotgun barrel through the wall and shot the runners through it... and so on and so forth. (this is just one example, happened last run)

That being said, I wouldn't mind the hacker not knowing anything about tactics. Hey, I would even mark it as good roleplaying if he does stupid things in combat. You could even talk to the weapon specialist and suggest him that he took advantage of those situations to roleplay his combat knowledge (in a friendly way, of course)
-"No! Jimmy, get back here! Damm script kid! Too many trid games! Trog, cover me, I am going to get him back"

Cheers and happy gaming!

Max

[kzt]

[Clyde]

kzt,

It sounds like your gangers didn't have much in the way of stats.

For example, a starting street samurai can throw 14 dice with an assault rifle. Since it takes at least one net hit to connect, you need something like 11 to 12 dice to confidently defend. Impossible? Hardly.

First, get a base Reaction of 4. No gunfighter should do with less. Increase that reaction to 5 with drugs or cyberware (either are cheap enough to be available to anyone).

Second, get a Dodge skill of 3. Specialize in ranged dodge (the only real advantage dodge has over gymnastics, but it's a big one).

Third, fight from good cover. A -4 penalty puts the sammie at 10 dice. The ganger defends with 10 dice on full defense.

On full defense, your hypothetical ganger won't get hit by anything short of a long wide burst (which the sammie can throw), an edge augmented shot, or just good rolling.

Full defense is critical to stretching out a fight, imo. You can use it when it's not your turn - although it will take up your next available action. For grunts, often the choice is between losing an action and losing your life. Because you can still move while on full defense, it actually becomes an offensive maneuver. A grunt can run (gaining +2 to defense rolls) to a better attack position.

Even if going defensive doesn't save a grunt, it often means that the runner has to work twice as hard to bring him down. That leaves more goons alive to shoot back.

You also want to use Edge to preempt the runners. Group edge makes that tough, but it's a better use of one or two edge points than the ability to reroll your tiny dice pool. This tends to force PCs to be a bit more careful in who they attack, because it's easy to get lots of dice to hit with (smartlink, specialization, muscle replacement, etc).

Another stat to be wary of is armor. It's easy to underprotect your bad guys. Runners will virtually always load up on explosive or EX rounds, so their guns will tend to hit harder than weapons of comparable force in the hands of a budget minded NPC. With enough armor, grunts can take multiple hits to bring down.

It's vitally important for grunts to spread out for two reasons. First, when bunched together they make great stunball and grenade targets (as you saw). Second, when spread out they get more shooting angles on the runners.

Don't forget to throw in a lieutenant or two that is more powerful than a typical grunt. This guy maybe shouldnt' be obvious (to keep him alive longer) or should be using edge to preempt the runners.

Finally, sauce for the goose is pretty important to keep the goose from tasting like crap. Use stunball, grenade launchers, EX explosive rounds from tricked out Ares Alpha assault rifles and cheap Reaction enhancers and muscle toner on your runners. (For the price of a mercury comet, you can be twice the security guard than an unaugmented foe - probably a worthwhile trade). Don't forget drones and spirits. Your grunts will thank you :love:

[hyzmarca]

Gangers should use smart tactics, as well. These people fight for their lives and their turfs every day. What they lack in training they make up for in practical experience. And, being young and untrained, they are more likely to take novel approaches to combat. These are the same sort of guy who invented the Drive By Shooting, after all.

If fact, if you don't have gangers just Drive By the PCs at least once, you aren't using Vehicles to their full effectiveness.




In addition to the above suggestions, I'd suggest the following.

Have the encounter in an alleyway. 1 Ganger lures them into the ally near a metal dumpster he has a melee weapon but acts friendly. They're doing legwork and he's a friend of a friend of a contact. Six more gangers with mixed SMGs and Auto-Shotguns are hiding behind the dumpster, they pop out, firing wide bursts while the traitor character melees the PCs. Then, three tanks with mixed Ak-97s and Auto-shotguns close off the alleyway, blocking their retreat. (The Spikes would never do this because it goes against the principals of Sun Tzu, it forces the PCs to fight to the death and increases their chance of pulling a miracle out of their assess.) Finally, four more gangers, acting as snipers, point bipod-modified Ak-97s out the windows and snipe with aimed bursts and called bursts. All of the gangers on the ground have an extra +1Rea +1IP from either Cram or Jazz. LTs might even have both.

[Kyoto Kid]

...gangers with auto shotguns, assault rifles, snipers using bipods?? I thought the Red Hot Nukes were no more. :grinbig:

[kzt]

Magic and airbursted grenades tend to toast people trying to play dodger.

Even when the PCs luck sucks, as it did here.

Oh and the rules make dodge only effective on full defense. "There is no skill that applies to defending against ranged attacks—defending characters simply roll Reaction (the defaulting modifier does not apply). Characters may also go on full defense (p. 151)."

It's always easy to kill the PCs. It's hard to have a combat that last for long in SR if the PCs have a clue. Nobody really misses much, and if they go to grenades or magic, they don't typically miss by enough to matter.

[Zak]

[Kyoto Kid]

...a gang of dwarves who love to blow crap up... always been my fave.

[Fortune]

[Kyoto Kid]

...yeah but they also like using very big guns & explosives too. That makes up for the magic. :grinbig: