Full dodge and Acrobatic Dodge, When Rules get suddenly imprecise. Options

[Lantzer]

Ok, the rules are irritatingly written here.

On page 151, BBB, they talk about Full defense. They are very specific when describing Full Dodge and Full parry.

They are less so when describing Gymnastics Dodge.

This brings up some questions:

1) Is Gymnastics Dodge a full equivalent of Full Dodge, i.e. does it mean you use Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics (or Reaction + Weapon Skill + Gymnastics for melee)?

2) Do you use the Gymnastics dice as extra dice for a Full Dodge test, i.e. Reaction + dodge + dodge + gymnastics?

3) Do extra dice normally added to gymnastics tests apply here (assuming you aren't already applying them for some other reason)? The main culprits I'm thinking of here are Reflex Recorder bioware and adept Improved Ability.

4) Is Gymnastics only usable to dodge as part of a full defense action?

What do you think?

My opinions:

1) Yep. This means those with a better gymnastics than dodge can make use of it. Also, consistency in the rules is good. Pretty much the point in 4th ed, right?

2) Hell no. Every character I've seen has the Athletics group.

3) I'd think so. Let those Adepts get cinematic.

4) Yes. You gotta put effort into it, chummer. Don't sell back that dodge skill yet.

[lorechaser]

I've always read it as you simply replace Dodge with Tumble at your option.

To my mind, dodge is what you use if you don't have melee or tumble.

[Glyph]

1. Yes. It is exclusively mentioned under full defense.

2. No. This is the part of the rules that is irritating, though. For every other damn thing, they say exactly what gets added together. For gymnastics dodge, though, they only say that it gets added to "your dice pool". Very clear and helpful... NOT. I would say that it is simply gymnastics added to reaction - not as good as a full dodge or a full parry. Making it more than that (such as by doubling gymnastics) risks game imbalance due to question # 3.

3. Yes. No reason they shouldn't. But those dice can really add up. In addition to what you listed, enhanced articulation and synthcardium both add dice to athletics tests. Also, it only costs an adept 0.75, as opposed to 1.5, to get those three bonus dice. And finally, acrobatics is a specialization of gymnastics, making 2 more potential dice for a character to use. A starting mundane character with gymnastics/acrobatics: 6 (+2), a reflex recorder, enhanced articulation, and synthcardium: 3 would roll 13 dice for an acrobatics dodge, plus reaction. I think part of the reason that gymnastics dodge is so gimped is because it is so easy to get extra dice for it.

4. Yes. This was addressed in question #1. If it could be used for normal defense, there wouldn't even be any point to the dodge skill.

[ShadowDragon]

How I do it is that gymnastics can replace dodge or weapon skill for full defence only. So you can use full defence against bullets with reaction + gymnastics, and full defence against melee with reaction + gymnastics + gymnastics. I don't see it as an imbalance because gymnastics doesn't help with regular defence so the other skills are still valuable, and it only gives the player more options.

[Lantzer]

[Cold-Dragon]

It'd be semi ideal for those full out melee adepts that want to dance around before making a bit strike, otherwise Dodge is the 'overall' better skill in that it has more practical use in combat.

Gymnastics, however, is convenient for those other moments of dodging bullets (since an adept can boost it more cheaply), jumping, falling from high places, and of course, break dance fighting!

Never underestimate break dance fighting. ;)

[Ophis]

Could someone explain to me why dodge is better than gymnastics for defending, to use either I have to spend an action on defence, and thats all dodge does where as gymnastics allows me to do jumping type stuff to.

[Thanee]

Dodge is only really better if you do not have Unarmed Combat (or another applicable melee combat skill) or Gymnastics already, since it covers both melee and range defense.

Bye
Thanee

[Ophis]

Yeah i thought that was it.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Because Dodge allows you to specialize in Ranged Combat.

[Eryk the Red]

This is how I run Gymnastics dodge: Until your next action, whatever you would roll normally for defense, add Gymnastics to that. If getting shot at, that means you roll Reaction + Gymnastics. If in melee, that means you roll Reaction + Dodge/Melee Skill + Gymnastics. That's it. If you look at Full Defense, they all work the same: Add (Skill) to defense dice pools. Full parry is the one with greater limits, because it can only benefit melee defense, and only when parrying with the same skill. But the rules for each type are fundamentally the same.

[Lantzer]

[2bit]

lantzer is correct.
oops... i take that back... he's incorrect...
The above example doesn't apply when someone's shooting at you. The only time you would apply a dodging skill twice is when in melee combat. "Regular dodge" vs. ranged attacks is Reaction + nothing.

So dodge has the advantage of specialization vs. ranged or melee attacks, but gymnastics is useful for a lot of other things. If a GM allows gymnastics specializations to apply to dodge tests, then gymnastics > dodge against all ranged attacks.

Vs. melee, the only thing you can't do is roll Reaction + Gymnastics + Gymnastics. For full defense vs. melee, you need dodge or a melee combat skill in one slot.

Yep, that leaves dodge in a very narrow place.

[Lantzer]

As an interesting aside, defense is one of those places where having a high skill is better than having bunch of bonus dice (assuming they normally add up to the same dice pool). The following is a simple example:

Example 1 (skills): Reaction 4, Dodge 6
Normal Defense = 4+6 = 10 dice
Full Dodge = 4+6+6 = 16 dice

Example 2 (skill+ bonus): Reaction 4, Dodge 3, Adept Enhanced Ability (Dodge) 3
Normal Defense = 4 + 3 + 3 = 10 dice
Full Defense = 4+3+3+3 = 13 dice

Bonus dice only add once.

[Ophis]

Yes but since you only ever get the double dodge in melee, why bother unless you're playing a character who would never get unarmed. I have run Sr4 for a year and have yet to see anyone use full defense in ranged combat. Mostly my players believe in the best defense being a good offence.

[Thanee]

...and a healthy dose of cover! :D

Bye
Thanee

[Slithery D]

Full defense is useful when: (1) you need to get to cover and (2) you've got lots of IPs and the enemy doesn't.

[Lantzer]

Whoops - good catch there.

Only about the 4th time I've made that mistake.


Ophis - The main reason to use full defense in ranged combat is when you lose initiative.

At least for my characters, if I lose initiative, I'm aborting to full defense (you can do that) and using my next movement to get in cover. I could just stand there and wait for my chance to shoot, but I'll likely get to my turn in the intensive care unit.

Ducking is good. This ain't a duel.

[Dr. Dodge]

Discussed before here

[Ophis]

Okay I'll admit my players are hard nuts, and smart enough that being the ones being caught off guard is a rarity. It's usually them doing the ambush.