Techno-Face, Character/Concept Review Options

[Udoshi]

Sounds like pretty sneaky sneakiness. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Doesn't the technomancer literally use Resonance-linked 'versions' of all those skills? Oh well, might as well try every trick in a charop exercise.

No, he uses Logic-linked skills, and resonance-based(but not linked, because its not a skill) complex forms. If you check the list of skills, there ARE resonance linked skills. The cracking and electronics groups are not part of those skills. But tasking is!

are you really trying to argue that someone who hacks the internet with their brain doesn't use their brain to hack the internet?

[Yerameyahu]

Nope. Who said that?

Anyway, it's very technomancery to steal one of the few mundane hacker advantages, so can't fault that. Unless you want to. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) In which case, you could make a decent argument that they're Resonance-y skills. Oh well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[czarcasm]

But technomancers still can't use simsense accelerators, right?

[Udoshi]

But technomancers still can't use simsense accelerators, right?

Wrong.

Edit: Wait, no.

Accelerators are the commlink mod.
Boosters are the implant.

The answer is yes, to both, but it may not work with their resonance abilities.

A TM with a simsense booster implant gets a 4th matrix pass, but is unable to get a 5th one. See the shadowrun FAQ, specifically "Do technomancers benefit from the Encephalon or Simsense Booster cyberware?".
They can't get a 5th pass because the 'you can break the 4th pass rule' is specifically in the Advanced Overclocking echo description(if they had it, they wouldn't need the booster), and in the Accelerator.

Nothing stops a TM from using trodes and a Commlink with a Simsense accelerator, and their own booster to gain 5 passes, but it'd be old-school/retro style, which TM's generally don't like.

I honestly don't know if a TM can hook up a simsense accelerator to their brain. I'm leaning towards 'no', because their head isn't a commlink, but i'm not sure what happens if its connected to a booster too.

[Yerameyahu]

Sure, if they're using redundant non-Technomancer skills on a commlink instead of their bionode.

[Udoshi]

Exactly.

Is there any reason why an Otaku-style TM with a datajack and a simsense booster couldn't connect/network/slave/cluster/modify a simsense accelerator into his other hardware for the 5th pass?

I am cautiously inclined to say yes; as a 2-slot modification the accelerator doesn't necessarily have to go into a commlink. Commlink have 4 slots, but other electonic devices do have space for mods as well.

[Yerameyahu]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) You really have no shame at all. No! They're "Commlink Modifications". For commlinks. The accelerator specifically mentions commlinks.

And just so I'm sure, you're not saying you can get a 5th pass from this except by getting 5 *normal*, non-Technomancer passes on a normal commlink, are you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif) You only get one set of initiative passes with one initiative score, at a time. If you're using your Living Persona, you get that; if you're using your commlink persona, you get that; if you're using AR/any physical actions, you get that (special Echoes being the exception, obviously).

[Udoshi]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) You really have no shame at all. No! They're "Commlink Modifications". For commlinks. The accelerator specifically mentions commlinks.

And just so I'm sure, you're not saying you can get a 5th pass from this except by getting 5 *normal*, non-Technomancer passes on a normal commlink, are you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif) You only get one set of initiative passes with one initiative score, at a time. If you're using your Living Persona, you get that; if you're using your commlink persona, you get that; if you're using AR/any physical actions, you get that (special Echoes being the exception, obviously).

Yes, i am saying that a TM can use his non-living avatar persona with a 5-pass booster/accelerator combo,just like a hacker. I think we both agree on that point.


However.

A simsense booster works with the living avatar, per FAQ.
So why doesn't a simsense accelerator?

[Yerameyahu]

Cuz it's a piece of computer gear, not wetware. Actually, I recall this same discussion with respect to an AI; different reason, but same 'no'. :/

Honestly, the Technomancer has a way of getting this anyway, and it's not even that much karma (with your Resonance group/sprite bond trickery). Don't be greedy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Hehe. If there *weren't* already an Echo for it, you might be able to argue that it should be a (really overpowered) CF, like some of the other 'gear' CFs (which I can't remember right now, bleh).

[Udoshi]

Cuz it's a piece of computer gear, not wetware. Actually, I recall this same discussion with respect to an AI; different reason, but same 'no'. :/

Honestly, the Technomancer has a way of getting this anyway, and it's not even that much karma (with your Resonance group/sprite bond trickery). Don't be greedy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Hehe. If there *weren't* already an Echo for it, you might be able to argue that it should be a (really overpowered) CF, like some of the other 'gear' CFs (which I can't remember right now, bleh).

yeah, but AI's cant use implants, and TM's can. And these implants ARE compatable. Its not the same at all.

I'm almost inclined to say no, just because a TM doesn't pay essence for it, but then again, neither does a hacker. They *could* pay essence if its in internal commlink, but its not required.

[Mäx]

yeah, but AI's cant use implants, and TM's can.

And this is relevant how exactly?
Simsense Accelerator isn't an implant, its a commlink mod.

[Yerameyahu]

Indeed. AIs can use nodes, after all, but that still doesn't let them benefit from a commlink mod that specifically affects simsense and the persona (neither of which an AI uses, here).

[Sengir]

A simsense booster works with the living avatar, per FAQ.
So why doesn't a simsense accelerator?

Because the Booster works where the TM's persona is generated, namely the brain. The Accelerator sits in a commlink, which has nothing to do with generating the persona. Same reason why your van's turbocharger does not affect matrix initiative.

[Udoshi]

Because the Booster works where the TM's persona is generated, namely the brain. The Accelerator sits in a commlink, which has nothing to do with generating the persona. Same reason why your van's turbocharger does not affect matrix initiative.

Okay, so how does this change if the Accelerator is built into the VR unit instead?
Or the Simsense booster itself? Also, all cyberware has a device rating. Even if its only 3.

Remember, the commlink modifications section in unwired, while titled commlink mods, also applies to other electronic devices. (sometimes you have to read below the header to get a the full rule)
And, honestly, a simsense accelerator in the sim unit, instead of the commlink, makes MUCH more sense. Its also (very slightly) a good reason to get an implanted VR unit. (though simrigs are better if you don't mind the extra essence.)


Suddenly, the commlink isn't in the picture anymore - and yet the accelerator stil works - so I ask you again, why not?

Clarification: For a reason BESIDES game balance - allowing this is basically pissing on it - but i'm curious if there's a good rules-based reason why not?

[Glyph]

The simsense accelerator "increases the speed at which simsense signals are transmitted between the commlink and a persona controlled via hot-sim VR." For a technomancer, there is no distinction between commlink and persona - there is only the living persona. A simsense accelerator doesn't work for them because they operate under a completely different paradigm.

[Yerameyahu]

I feel like that's what I said earlier. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's a commlink mod that specifically affects simsense and the persona firmware; that means no Technomancers and no AIs, because they simply aren't using that. Even if you tried the 'the mods are for any electronics' trickery (trickery because the Accel specifically says 'commlink'), it doesn't do anything unless this theoretical non-commlink device has persona firmware and simsense (…which is basically the definition of a commlink).

[Udoshi]

I feel like that's what I said earlier. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's a commlink mod that specifically affects simsense and the persona firmware; that means no Technomancers and no AIs, because they simply aren't using that. Even if you tried the 'the mods are for any electronics' trickery (trickery because the Accel specifically says 'commlink'), it doesn't do anything unless this theoretical non-commlink device has persona firmware and simsense (…which is basically the definition of a commlink).

Counterpoints: Technomancers DO have persona firmware; they have an icon and a Living Persona, and even have a uniquely generated access id.(4a 217)
Even if they DIDN'T have it, they could thread it - the resonance has shown the ability to duplicate normaly 'firmware' programs and utility anyway.
Additional rebuttal: A Simsense Accelerator is not a commlink mod; it is simply 'a state of the art mod' that does something. Its not trickery: In a usual hacker setup, modding an accelerator into a sim unit, which is then networked to a commlink fulfils the necessary requirements. (Vr controlled persona, commlink)

The simsense accelerator "increases the speed at which simsense signals are transmitted between the commlink and a persona controlled via hot-sim VR." For a technomancer, there is no distinction between commlink and persona - there is only the living persona. A simsense accelerator doesn't work for them because they operate under a completely different paradigm.

As opposed to:

How about: The simsense accelerator "increases the speed at which simsense signals are transmitted between the (Bionode) and a (Living) persona controlled via hot-sim VR." For a technomancer, there is no distinction between commlink and persona - there is only the living persona.

I feel Glyph has made my point for me.
Even so, the entire point of technomancers is that they are backwards compatable with the rest of the matrix. They even use the same VR everyone else does - which is WHY the simsense booster works for them.

[Yerameyahu]

They have a living persona. It's equivalent. That's not 'same'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You can't (or possibly "shouldn't") thread a 'persona' CF, because you're using your living persona. I can't even imagine what would happen.

The description of the simsense accelerator specifies 'commlink' as part of the equation. It's no use making a 'physics' argument, because it's all handwavium to start with. Just decided whether or not you want it to work, instead of squeezing the rules until they do what you want. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

… Did you alter a quote of Glyph? That's not cool, and very confusing.

[Udoshi]

… Did you alter a quote of Glyph? That's not cool, and very confusing.

I did; but I did want to do it to show a point, not to be a snide jerk putting words into other people's mouths. One moment, let me edit that, and thank you for pointing it out.

I'll respond to your other stuff, but i wanted to get this out of the way first.

[Udoshi]

They have a living persona. It's equivalent. That's not 'same'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You can't (or possibly "shouldn't") thread a 'persona' CF, because you're using your living persona. I can't even imagine what would happen.

The description of the simsense accelerator specifies 'commlink' as part of the equation. It's no use making a 'physics' argument, because it's all handwavium to start with. Just decided whether or not you want it to work, instead of squeezing the rules until they do what you want. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I will agree with you on the shouldn't. Just because its possible, doesn't mean its a good idea.



So.... why can't a technomancer connect a commlink to their bionode? Boom, second half of the equation filled. If it doesn't work, your essentailly arguing that Hacker's can use VR.

Hacker has a commlink. It can surf the trix.
Hacker gets a VR unit. Connects it to the commlink. Boom, VR-enabled.
The point is, simply networking the devices is enough to enable something you couldn't do before. The actual -rules- mechanics of this are in such a huge grey area its not funny (is it a subscription? Is slaving required. What if its one of those 'built-into' the new 2070's commlink things. What if it ISN'T, and you have an external one, or a cyberware one connected to an external commlink through a datajack? If it is a subscription, can you break/spoof the subscription to drop someone out of VR? How does this fit in with clustering and slaving? How exactly DOES this sharing-of-functionality propogate across the network, anyway? Can you use 1 sim unit to put a few networked people into VR at the same time? Does it need a hard link? Does it work over wi-fi? If it DOES work over wi-fi, can you forcibly network a vr unit to someone's commlink?)

I'm not expecting anyone to answer this: The point is to show its a can of worms. Its a pretty commonly accepted thing that if you have a commlink and a vr unit, you can go into vr.


Same thing, only with our TM.
technomancer IS the vr unit.
Connects him/her self to a commlink. (No, i don't mean decking old-school, without the resonance)
...suddenly there's a commlink in the loop. Uh oh. Now we have both halves connected.

[Yerameyahu]

It's not 'the' loop, that's two separate loops. A technomancer can use a commlink… with mundane persona firmware. Or, they can use their bionode/living persona. Totally different things.

Assuming there's any kind of science behind this (and fully professing that one should never muck around with fictional 'science'), the Accel specifically functions in one way: commlink > Accel > persona firmware. Yes, it's totally arbitrary. No, a technomancer's bionode and living persona don't qualify, unless they're capable of separating the two. They're not, AFAIK. The living persona comes from the bionode exclusively and interacts with (through) the bionode exclusively, because they're a single unit. The is no 'between' in that single unit to insert an electronics mod, especially not one that *specifies* 'commlink'.

The RAW doesn't support a Simsense Accelerator giving a technomancer an extra IP with his living persona. Again, it doesn't matter for actual play, because the GM/table can just change the (frequently fallible) RAW.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's not 'the' loop, that's two separate loops. A technomancer can use a commlink… with mundane persona firmware. Or, they can use their bionode/living persona. Totally different things.

Assuming there's any kind of science behind this (and fully professing that one should never muck around with fictional 'science'), the Accel specifically functions in one way: commlink > Accel > persona firmware. Yes, it's totally arbitrary. No, a technomancer's bionode and living persona don't qualify, unless they're capable of separating the two. They're not, AFAIK. The living persona comes from the bionode exclusively and interacts with (through) the bionode exclusively, because they're a single unit. The is no 'between' in that single unit to insert an electronics mod, especially not one that *specifies* 'commlink'.

The RAW doesn't support a Simsense Accelerator giving a technomancer an extra IP with his living persona. Again, it doesn't matter for actual play, because the GM/table can just change the (frequently fallible) RAW.

Besides, it is totally irrelevant... Technomancers can acquire that 5th Pass through Echoes... So, Since they have their own way to get there, enforce it, and make them buy the echoes for their living persona... if they want to do it through their Comlink (which they can do), they have to buy the mundane hacker skills (they must be bought a second time, per the rulebook)...

[Yerameyahu]

Indeed. I mentioned that in #34, though the exploration of rules is always interesting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mardrax]

Hacker gets a VR unit. Connects it to the commlink. Boom, VR-enabled.

You're looking for the term "sim module". A module is physically connected to, or installed onto a device to increase its capabilities. Like if you wanted to use a device through skinlink, you'd need to have a skinlink module on every device you want to use through it, and your comlink. Since a technomancer can't connect a module to his brain, their use is not allowed. He can sometimes emulate their function through certain echoes. Echoes, as well as mental attribute increases, are a technomancer's version of a hardware upgrade.
The simsense accelerator is not a module, it's a mod, presumably of the sim module, though it might as well be of the comlink itself.
Either way, a techno has neither available to mod.