Grunt Survival Guide, How to kill PCs with low-powered opposition. Options

[Method]

Note my use of there words "run-of-the-mill street gang" in the post above. Despite the sources you reference and their loose definitions of the word "gang" I don't think you can argue that all (or even most) street gangs operate like the militias in a lawless war-torn hell hole like Mogadishu. Street gangs in Z zones maybe (as I have already conceded) but the Seattle metroplex is a lot larger than just the Z zones and there are gangs everywhere.

Anyway... I really don't want to derail Khadim's thread here, so let me focus on consensus: I agree that street gangs in 2070 probably have access to mil spec weapons (they do now in RL) and I agree they would use them in certain high threat engagements. I do not think it is beyond the realm of possibility that they would use them against a team of runners.

[edit] arg... typos!!!

[Cthulhudreams]

Yeah, its obviously going to dependent on area.

The street gangs in hong kong are certainly not going to be running around throwing grenades around from the back of their souped up pickup with a pintle mounted HMG screaming YE-HAW. But the street gangs in mogadisu did mount attacks on US incursions into their territory, and there is every reason to belive that big Z-zone gangs would do the same thing.

But, yeah, my point was that due to the complete absence of law and order in big chunks of the 2070 world, the gang situation in those parts will be much more like 1990s Mogadishu than 1990s Seattle or Chicago.

I'd also say that the amount of 'bleed' into other areas would actually be pretty low. Criminals are chronically lazy, and the crime rate drops off quite quickly once you move out of the area the actual criminals live in.

Would be weird!

[Chrysalis]

In Glasgow you can go from Upper-middle class lifestyle on one side of the street to council flats on the other.

The change is quite abrupt.

[hobgoblin]

hmm, lets sum up seattle, its like east berlin during the cold war, a pocket of ucas in the middle of foreign territory. it even has a military base within its border. then you have areas thats basically out of seattle government control thanks to collection of issues. its just one honking weird place.

its like they took a look at night city in cp2020, itself probably an attempt at recreating the area "described" in count zero, and slapped it on top of seattle.

[nezumi]

Wow, Doc makes a strong point about the availability of milspec weapons. It really does change how I see things.

Plus, I like the idea of a ganger mugging people with a rocket launcher and lots of fun rocket parties. I think my players will like them too.

[Cantankerous]

Shadowrun has the ability to put even Mil Spec in the hands of gang bangers, yes, if the gang bangers can afford them. Availability isn't an issue, but economics SHOULD be!

A top echelon gang, say the Ancients, well sure, a few rockets might fall off a back of a truck in Fort Lewis and end up in their hands. But much below that, not a chance. Maybe, maybe a cheap piece of second hand cyberware that they dig out of a corpse and finagle a deal with a local cutter, maybe, since it is a long term return for the money, but if you live at low or below lifestyle, what the hell are you doing with weaponry that would pay all your bills for six months or more...maybe allot more? The two do not equate. While I am all for giving the mooks something to make them more fearsome, I think it needs to stay in the bounds of reasonability... realism, but it can't be too silly.


Isshia

[Tarantula]

Really? Cause, 750 nuyen gets you a LAW rocket. Thats almost cheaper than those armor vests they wear.

[psychophipps]

Really? Cause, 750 nuyen gets you a LAW rocket. Thats almost cheaper than those armor vests they wear.

Oh getting the things isn't too hard. they find RPGs and the like in arms dealer and gang busts all the time. The issue, even for the high-end gangs, is the firm, unyielding knowledge that if they use the things it's gonna be their collective asses in a sling BIG-TIME.

You want heat form the fuzz? Just use an RPG anytime, anywhere. They really don't care if you hit anything worth a damn. Use it on the empty Stuffer Shack, City Hall, the mayor's car, maybe a dumpy flat in the Barrens. They won't care either way. SWAT rolls out, they find who did what and with what, and they commence with some serious Grade-A boot-to-ass interface...

You know how hard and fast you need to twist your foot to get one of those soft Oakley assault boots to break off in a ganger's ass? I don't know either but I'm sure that it can be adequately described as "Pretty damn!"

[Tarantula]

Barrens? You mean those places that lone-star avoids because the most likely target for those LAW rockets is the cop car? And that its primarily the military thats dumb enough to make incursions into them, thinking they're doing some good. Those barrens?

[nezumi]

You want heat form the fuzz? Just use an RPG anytime, anywhere. They really don't care if you hit anything worth a damn. Use it on the empty Stuffer Shack, City Hall, the mayor's car, maybe a dumpy flat in the Barrens. They won't care either way. SWAT rolls out, they find who did what and with what, and they commence with some serious Grade-A boot-to-ass interface...

I think you need to crack New Seattle and reread the definition of a Z-zone. Lone Star isn't going into the barrens without a motorcade of APCs and combat helicopters, and with the foreknowledge that they should expect significant losses. And they certainly aren't going to do that over some ganger blowing up the property of someone who doesn't pay for LS protection anyway.

[Mickle5125]

... Your run-of-the-mill street gang is, for all intents and purposes, a business and one of the cardinal rules of the Sixth World is "War is bad for business"...

Depends on the business you're in... War is very good for the arms business... ^_^

[Cthulhudreams]

Yeah, the cops aren't going to go into the barrens for some guy blowing up some other guys shop with a rocket launcher.

They aren't even paid to care, so its a high risk (we're going to run into an area full of criminals with guns that actively hate us, yee haw) no reward (they are paid to protect citizens from crime.. people in Z-zones arn't citizens, or really even people.) activity. Why the hell would lone star ever going in their ever?

But really the fundamental difference between America today and america 2070 is that unlike chicago today were their are merely areas that the police fear to tread, 2070 american has places that the police, government services and everyone else from the government will never go to ever under any circumstances.

It is a complete and catastrophic breakdown of law and order into a failed state in the Z-zones.

If you want to see areas like that in real life, you need to check out the Congo, Somalia, Rwanda, etc. Those are failed states. They have no law and order or government services.

[DocTaotsu]

I think the most compelling argument for "Gangers don't host rocket parties on weekdays" is that the "Don't shit where you eat" argument. Blowing the fuck out of the Barrens (an area already described as a blown to fuck warzone) doesn't seem very productive and not conducive to continued to existence. Rocket duels are probably rare for the reason nuclear exchanges are rare (nevermind that it's possible nukes don't work in the sixth world). If one dumb fragger starts tossing around rockets and everyone tosses them back... well now we have a bunch of dead gangers with not a whole lot to show for it. It's hard to nick someones K-10 if you blew them into a fine mist, spread out over a couple city blocks.

Also there's always the chance that a rocket will go stray and land somewhere with an actual security contract. Even if it's a C zone you can expect that the LS response is going to be overwhelming and horrific. I'm sure Amnesty International will have lodged numerous complaints for LS units "collectively punishing" who areas of the Barrens for just such offenses. The lesson LS is trying to telegraph is "Keep that shit in the Barren's, don't make it our business or we'll make your business go up in a bright flash."

Frankly I like it, the Barrens could stand to be more dangerous to runners and a proliferation of aging milspec weapons either makes for more RP (as players negoatiate deals with local gangs to give them safe haven and uh...not blow them up) or less one sided battles (Players are less likely to instantly destroy and entire gang if said gang can sling some 14P damage into the fight... or at least blow up the rigger womb)

[Cthulhudreams]

Yeah, I agree Doc, you're not going to see these guys do it every week, low level skirmishes are not going to feature the big guns. But if a loose affiliation of gangs moves into the turf of another loose affiliation of gangs in a really big way and starts to hijack their protection rackets.. I'd expect to see a big fight, with all the bells, whistles and explosives that came to hand.

[DocTaotsu]

I think it's important to keep these weapons scarce. They're available, everyone has access to a handful of them but the big boys are holding most of the cards. Letting that kind of firepower run free, even in the Barrens, undermines the power of the big name gangs. I tend to think that people like the Ancients or the Cascade Orks typically try to control the supply into the Barrens and other Z-Zones. It's profitable for them, they can use it as a bargining chip (Help us and get some RPG's, don't and get some RPG's the hard way), and it lets them pick and choose who's in charge at the lower levels. I'm sure some random c14 and LAW's find "other" ways into the area but your low and mid level gangs don't have crates of this shit laying around.

Besides, if you have it you have to protect it and not everyone is comfortable sleeping on a bunch of small bombs that may or may not have defective fuses.

[Cthulhudreams]

I've always imagined gangs like that really loose conglomerations of gangs that serve as a distribution and collection network that funnels funds up and goods (i.e. drugs) down to the streets.

So the guy dealing on the street corner might not have an RPG, he probably only has a pistol as dealing is a high risk occupation, but as you move up the gang heiracy (which is probably fairly shallow) you encounter some very mean people that probably do have rocket launchers. But they won't hand them out to the gang bangers until its required.

So under that model the big name gangs are really a conglomerate of street gangs, and only the 'senior management' (who import the drugs, guns, etc) have direct access to bigger hardware. But if there is a major turf war on, they will start pushing out more hardware to the guys on the street.

[Grinder]

It is a complete and catastrophic breakdown of law and order into a failed state in the Z-zones.

If you want to see areas like that in real life, you need to check out the Congo, Somalia, Rwanda, etc. Those are failed states. They have no law and order or government services.

Rwanda is on the upswing and far from being a Z-zone - the 1994 genocide turned the land into one, sure, but nowadays the country is far from being one. Congo is only in parts a Z-zone, mostly on its eastern border. Somalia on the other hand is a complete hellhole.

[Dr Funfrock]

I like a lot of what DocTaotsu is saying here. Another point I'd throw in on the issue of availability is that the rules for Shadowrun are focused on the idea of Runners. That includes the rules for availability. Shadowrun does not actually include rules for what happens when you're trying to acquire more of an item than are reasonably available. So yes, a runner can get ahold of a LAW pretty easy. Doesn't mean a gang can get 20 of them as easily. The supply just won't support that.

It's also worth remembering the way law enforcement works (echoing Psychophipps point). Shoot up a rival gang, it's gang warfare. That's a local policing issue. Shoot up a rival gang using a few rocket launchers, that's domestic terrorism, which is a federal issue. Now adjust that for the workings of the 2070 world as neccessary, but from what I've read in Shadows of North America most of the same principles apply to the workings of law enforcement.

This, of course, rolls back around to my point about availability. Runners are more likely to get ahold of heavy weapons because a dealer is more likely to trust a runner to a) not actually use the bloody thing in the local area; and b) not get caught and blurt out who they bought it from. It's still a risk, but not as big a risk. As far as the purveyors of this kind of milspec are concerned (I'm assuming small lots of high priced product here; let's not forget that the black market price for that 750 LAW is more like 1,200 at least), runners make much better customers.

[hyzmarca]

The fun comes when gangers who've played too much Quake 30 decide taht the best use of rockets is to increase their jump height.

[DocTaotsu]

Actually, I think it does doesn't it? Rules for when the market is flooded and what not? I don't have my books on me but I seem to recall the BBB outlined a couple of cases where things are cheaper or harder to get depending on market forces of various flavors. That might have just been costs though.

I think it's important to say that gangs include everything from 5 guys with 2 by 4's to the next best thing to a minor corps. Runners (or at least their fixers) probably get a lot of their stuff from gangs in the first place. Gangers sell drugs so they have money and smart gangers are probably "investing" that into building up their empires. Selling off the book LAW's to runners is probably pretty good business. Beyond that gangers are, at least in the case of the Ancients, the sort of people who are running these weapons into Seattle in the first place. If your fixer wants to bring in a couple crates of Ares Alphas he's probably just paying off the Ancients to strap them into their latest shipment of novacoke or what have you. If not the Ancient than the bevy of gangs that run out of the Ork Underground and specialize in smuggling.

I think Dr. Funrock is off on the domestic terrorism. As I understand it Z-Zones are off the map, they don't fall under anyones jurisdiction because no one wants to deal with them. This is the reasons corps occasionally stuff their uber secret laboratory o' bioweapons in these areas. Unless something in the Z-Zone occurs that could impact "real" citizens no one really cares. The gangers are dueling with RPG's? Meh. The gangers and dueling with FAE's and may have access to a small dirty bomb? Bad things might happen then. But I'm sure gangers know that at some level and probably don't bother to acquire anything that's going to bring down a military response. As long as those RPG's are only killing other gangers than the feds (such as they are) probably don't get paid enough to care.

[psychophipps]

I think Dr. Funrock is off on the domestic terrorism. As I understand it Z-Zones are off the map, they don't fall under anyones jurisdiction because no one wants to deal with them. This is the reasons corps occasionally stuff their uber secret laboratory o' bioweapons in these areas. Unless something in the Z-Zone occurs that could impact "real" citizens no one really cares. The gangers are dueling with RPG's? Meh. The gangers and dueling with FAE's and may have access to a small dirty bomb? Bad things might happen then. But I'm sure gangers know that at some level and probably don't bother to acquire anything that's going to bring down a military response. As long as those RPG's are only killing other gangers than the feds (such as they are) probably don't get paid enough to care.

The problem here is the lack of the correct mindset. The cops don't care about gangers blowing each other into a red mist. They care about the fact that if gangers have RPGs, who else has access to the things from the same supplier? So the cops roll out the SWAT vans after the detectives and intel boys get some info and you find out what complete asshat is selling the heavy weapons to the untrained idiots in the Barrens to keep the trained psychos that the cops are actually worried about from getting their mitts on them.

[DocTaotsu]

Whoa what? Cops roll into the Barrens over a couple of RPG's? This in a world where trained killers regularly trade automatic gunfire with police and corpsec in urban areas? As others have mentioned I think we're making RPG's a lot sexier than they are. I don't see gangers with rating 6 seeker heads and 4 flavors of boom, I see them with rockets that are one step up from dumbfire and that do about as much damage as a well placed grenade. In the big bad world of SR they really aren't that impressive, especially when held up to how nasty cops and corpsec are.

Gangers shooting rockets at each other, big whoop. Gangers using Azzie Strikers to knock LS helos out of the sky? Oh that'll bring the noise something awful.

Seriously, look at place like Brazil IRL. Those gangs have Z-Zones, RPG's and the whole nine but the cops, let alone the military, doesn't mess with them because... let's be honest, what's the fucking point? It's asymmetric warfare straight out of the textbook. Wasting 20-40 gangers for 1 cop is a huge waste of resources because it's not like they're going to run out of gangers before you run out of cops.

I also think you're under rating how bad Z-Zones are. Trying to take the guns away from gangers in a Z-Zone isn't a gun bust... it's a goddamn military operation. The smart gangers who run the place (the ones who lived long enough to run the place have to be pretty smart) know that their job is simply to make every incursion by the cops as painful as possible, hopefully spectacularly so. The cops in turn have "taught" the gangers that if their shit starts treading on the bottom line they'll send a few Yellow Jackets to perform "Strategic Interventions" to "Send a clear message to these gun dealing scum". Yellow Jacket shows up, blow up buildings more at less and random, and zip on home. Gangers get the point after a couple sorties.

It's a stalemate between the cops and the gangers. Gangers are not motivated (and/or trained, equipped, charismatic) enough to stage an overthrow of the government at large. Cops don't feel like playing Army and getting their asses shot off. Shadowrunners have a convient if dangerous place to hang out and buy/sell weapons to.

[hyzmarca]

One of the big reasons why the cops don't go after Shadowrunners is that they have to hire Shadowrunners to take care of stuff in the Z-zones when it needs to be taken care of.

When Cyrus figures out that the gangs outnumber and outgun the cops and unites them all for the purpose of marching out of the Barrens and conquering Seattle, they're going to hire some runners to go in there, cap Cyrus's ass, and frame The Warriors for it. They won't dare go in themselves, however; that's just suicide.

[DocTaotsu]

And expensive.

Runners hire for what? 10-20k a pop? Probably let them get into the LS off the book armory or toss them a favor. Cheap compared to staging an armed strike with air support and armor.

Value Added? You got something on those runners too.

[psychophipps]

I also think you're under rating how bad Z-Zones are. Trying to take the guns away from gangers in a Z-Zone isn't a gun bust... it's a goddamn military operation. The smart gangers who run the place (the ones who lived long enough to run the place have to be pretty smart) know that their job is simply to make every incursion by the cops as painful as possible, hopefully spectacularly so. The cops in turn have "taught" the gangers that if their shit starts treading on the bottom line they'll send a few Yellow Jackets to perform "Strategic Interventions" to "Send a clear message to these gun dealing scum". Yellow Jacket shows up, blow up buildings more at less and random, and zip on home. Gangers get the point after a couple sorties.

Well, I don't make my Z-zone Beirut in the early 80s or anything, but they're definitely not a pleasant place to be.

I pretty much do the same thing, actually. The cops don't roll in wearing riot gear and heading straight down the main roads with their lights flashing and sirens wailing. They get the intel and they send in some semi-marked vans and choppers with the operators in them to "take care o' biz" and head back out on the quick. Less LA riots and more Blackhawk Down (well, the way that it was planned to go down, not the way it ended up).