Grunt Survival Guide, How to kill PCs with low-powered opposition. Options

[DocTaotsu]

I will note that the op conducted in Blackhawk Down worked well several times before it didn't work anymore. The reason the operation in Mogadishu went tits up is the same reason cops wouldn't make a habit of doing raids in the Z-Zones.

I also imagine Z-Zones to be very insular and that "unmarked cars" stick out about as much as they do today. Cops try to roll down the street they'll tip off a bunch of people who's sole job is to look for cops trying to pass off as "regular" people given that the regular person in a Z-zone doesn't have a car or a high and tight hair cut. Commlinks chirp in the darkness, burning cars are rolled into intersections, ganger treaties are called into play, runners are bribed with good drugs and big guns. Bad things happen very quickly.

By the time cops do all the things they need to do to blend in, they might as well just hire runners.

The way I see it gangers have numbers, home field advantage, and very little to lose. Cops are more or less the opposite of that.

[psychophipps]

I will note that the op conducted in Blackhawk Down worked well several times before it didn't work anymore. The reason the operation in Mogadishu went tits up is the same reason cops wouldn't make a habit of doing raids in the Z-Zones.

I also imagine Z-Zones to be very insular and that "unmarked cars" stick out about as much as they do today. Cops try to roll down the street they'll tip off a bunch of people who's sole job is to look for cops trying to pass off as "regular" people given that the regular person in a Z-zone doesn't have a car or a high and tight hair cut. Commlinks chirp in the darkness, burning cars are rolled into intersections, ganger treaties are called into play, runners are bribed with good drugs and big guns. Bad things happen very quickly.

By the time cops do all the things they need to do to blend in, they might as well just hire runners.

The way I see it gangers have numbers, home field advantage, and very little to lose. Cops are more or less the opposite of that.

But a Z-zone and "The Mog" are totally different. One is a neglected ghetto where the residents have been forgotten by the people who can make a difference and The Mog is an urban hellhole with inter-clan rivalries powered by 25 years of full-out civil war and the deliberate exploitation of the entire economy to maintain a stranglehold via violence and the threat of starvation.

[Method]

The Z zones in SR's Seattle are at least 25 years old and just as lawless. I would say they are pretty damn close.

[AllTheNothing]

But a Z-zone and "The Mog" are totally different. One is a neglected ghetto where the residents have been forgotten by the people who can make a difference and The Mog is an urban hellhole with inter-clan rivalries powered by 25 years of full-out civil war and the deliberate exploitation of the entire economy to maintain a stranglehold via violence and the threat of starvation.

Method preceded me in pointing out but I would say the barren are at very least the same, probably worse.
It was explained quite well in Target: UCAS, cops are gone and the security-corps don't want to stop the crime, just fight it, they deliberately let some places become hellhole so decent people get scared end pay them to keep the streets clear of scums, the corps than simply pushes the indesiderables (not necessarily criminals) in the hellhole where their only shot to survival is crime, as things get worse in the hellhole decent people get even more scared so they keep to pay corps to protect them; Hypocrity FTW and if some innocent get the shaft who cares?
Thank to [insert relevant entity] the barrens are big and within there also some ray of light born from the effort of people who choose to stick together and build a better tomorrow, just to make the setting and hooding more compelling.

[Chrysalis]

My point to put it philosophically is: "If a ganger fires off a rocket in a Z-Zone, and no-one records it, what kind of sound does it make?"

Gangers can be armed to the teeth with every single piece of equipment same as any other Shadowrun team. Why because Emperor Mong whispered to the team saying, "you are armed to the teeth, what can a little gang do to you?"

However, I would say that if a ganger has a missile worth 30,000 nuyen and has a choice on firing it or selling it to some poor fixer for a week's worth of drugs. That's what I would call a hard decision right there.

As for unmarked Lone Star vehicles coming into a random neighbourhood. The only trouble is that there are no vehicles in the area that have not been burned, stripped, and turned into a mid-scale condo for a family of five. Random people who are clean shaven, fit, well fed in their shabby designer outfits whose response when entering a new neighbourhood is to be obviously carrying large wads of money and asking questions about the local warlords. A response which often gets them killed. You don't speak right, act right, look right, gets them also mugged and maybe killed.

Any of you ever lived in a neighbourhood where electricity and running water was a luxury? How about a place where you have to pay for protection every week?

It is true that this dependent on personal style. However, I believe that any place inhabited by people is also livable to some extent by these people. It means that there has to be a certain element of logic involved with it.

-Chrysalis

[Dr Funfrock]

Just re-reading these last few pages, I think we've ended up on a tangent to the original thread topic. This isn't so much a discussion of tactics as it is each GM asserting their personal vision of the Z-Zones; and let's be fair here, the fluff doesn't exactly nail them down. I suspect that's intentional; what is clear is that cops only go there in force. Whether that means two armoured cars, because one prowler would get molotov'd, or whether it means four armoured cars with HMGs and air support is pretty much down to your campaign style. One of the strengths of Shadowrun is that it copes very well, as a setting, with anything from Robocop to Spooks, and from Gibson to Steaphenson. What I do find, however, is that Seattle suffers from having been the default setting for so long; each edition has put a slightly different spin on it, or tried to stuff in more different cyberpunk ideas. The other cities often have a much clearer focus, and are better suited to certain campaign styles.

[Cthulhudreams]

If I was the cops rolling into a Z-zone, I'd get the army and just do a soviets in cheyna style leveling operation. When the people you'll killing have no identity, if I don't let anyone film the corpses its pretty much the same as if I didn't kill them to begin with, because it never happened.

Also, I agree its been totally derailed, but thats what happens with discussions. The topic evolves. The different way people look at Z-zones has been revealing.

[psychophipps]

If I was the cops rolling into a Z-zone, I'd get the army and just do a "Soviets in Chechnya" style leveling operation. When the people you'll killing have no identity, if I don't let anyone film the corpses its pretty much the same as if I didn't kill them to begin with, because it never happened.

And it makes sure that your security department has work for years. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Spark]

I think the most compelling argument for "Gangers don't host rocket parties on weekdays" is that the "Don't shit where you eat" argument. Blowing the fuck out of the Barrens (an area already described as a blown to fuck warzone) doesn't seem very productive and not conducive to continued to existence. Rocket duels are probably rare for the reason nuclear exchanges are rare (nevermind that it's possible nukes don't work in the sixth world). If one dumb fragger starts tossing around rockets and everyone tosses them back... well now we have a bunch of dead gangers with not a whole lot to show for it. It's hard to nick someones K-10 if you blew them into a fine mist, spread out over a couple city blocks.

Also there's always the chance that a rocket will go stray and land somewhere with an actual security contract. Even if it's a C zone you can expect that the LS response is going to be overwhelming and horrific. I'm sure Amnesty International will have lodged numerous complaints for LS units "collectively punishing" who areas of the Barrens for just such offenses. The lesson LS is trying to telegraph is "Keep that shit in the Barren's, don't make it our business or we'll make your business go up in a bright flash."

Frankly I like it, the Barrens could stand to be more dangerous to runners and a proliferation of aging milspec weapons either makes for more RP (as players negoatiate deals with local gangs to give them safe haven and uh...not blow them up) or less one sided battles (Players are less likely to instantly destroy and entire gang if said gang can sling some 14P damage into the fight... or at least blow up the rigger womb)

Unless ofc someone wants to move in and cant be bothered to do the dirty work (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[knasser]

I'm the thread starter (twisted thread starter), and oh yes, this thread has been badly derailed but personally speaking, it remains very interesting and worthwhile. To slightly join the disparate elements up again though, I'll mention something that happened in my campaign in the Redmond Barrens. Chrysalis' comments about if you have a 30,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) rocket launcher, you'll want to sell it for a ton of drugs, is a very valid one. But for some of the purposes of Barrens warfare, high technology isn't a must. I have a character in my game called Siege - a very intelligent troll ganger - who, following a lot of Matrix reading and a fair amount of scavenging of materials from derelict buildings, built the Barrens' first working trebuchet in living memory. He's now working on Ballistas and little mobile palisades, too. Though it's the ability to launch blocks of masonry into an enemy's position that is the useful one.

Because the Barren's is such an unique environment, I think we could see a number of unusual approaches. You'd never see US soldiers running down the street to storm an enemy building whilst sheltering under a few bolted together bits of burnt out car or pried-loose security doors. You'd never see that because the US has APCs. You don't see trebuchets amongst even the poor militant groups because they're not having years-long stand-offs with rival groups just a stones throw away from where they live. But if you don't need to strike targets in a variety of locations, but just hurl piles of concrete across the street every now and then, it just almost makes sense.

Just how plausible all this is, is slightly subjective, but it can just about be argued. And it can't be denied that a group of orks with assault rifles and a trebuchet makes an arresting image. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Stahlseele]

i'm so stealing that O.o
as for plausibility: if it's fun for the character, it's plausible enough . .

[Dumori]

i'm so stealing that O.o
as for plausibility: if it's fun for the character, it's plausible enough . .

my new sig.

[Method]

I have this image in my head of an urban siege- guys on roof tops like parapets pouring burning motor oil and dropping engine blocks down on their enemies. Then all the sudden a massive chunk of concrete comes hurtling out of the sky and sheers off the whole front of the building!! It is a thing of beauty. I like it, Khadim!

I am planning an upcoming run where my players (a merc group) are hired to infiltrate a Zeta-Imp Chem storage facility in the SOX. I want to ambush them with some Glo-punks and I think some of the ideas in this thread will definitely come in useful. My challenge will be to give a heavily armed and armored team of mercs a good fight with low-tech, poorly armed mutant gangers. I think the Glo-punks may be lead by a toxic shaman, so a few Nuclear spirits thrown into the mix might make a good force-multiplier. I'm also thinking of giving them a makeshift trash cannon of some kind. Something like this but less redneck and more Mad Max. And I might throw in a few of these with exploding shells instead of potatoes.

Any one have any other ideas?

[Dr Funfrock]

I'm the thread starter (twisted thread starter), and oh yes, this thread has been badly derailed but personally speaking, it remains very interesting and worthwhile. To slightly join the disparate elements up again though, I'll mention something that happened in my campaign in the Redmond Barrens. Chrysalis' comments about if you have a 30,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) rocket launcher, you'll want to sell it for a ton of drugs, is a very valid one. But for some of the purposes of Barrens warfare, high technology isn't a must. I have a character in my game called Siege - a very intelligent troll ganger - who, following a lot of Matrix reading and a fair amount of scavenging of materials from derelict buildings, built the Barrens' first working trebuchet in living memory. He's now working on Ballistas and little mobile palisades, too. Though it's the ability to launch blocks of masonry into an enemy's position that is the useful one.

Because the Barren's is such an unique environment, I think we could see a number of unusual approaches. You'd never see US soldiers running down the street to storm an enemy building whilst sheltering under a few bolted together bits of burnt out car or pried-loose security doors. You'd never see that because the US has APCs. You don't see trebuchets amongst even the poor militant groups because they're not having years-long stand-offs with rival groups just a stones throw away from where they live. But if you don't need to strike targets in a variety of locations, but just hurl piles of concrete across the street every now and then, it just almost makes sense.

Just how plausible all this is, is slightly subjective, but it can just about be argued. And it can't be denied that a group of orks with assault rifles and a trebuchet makes an arresting image. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

In terms of plausibility, that sounds perfectly reasonable to me actually. You make a good case for why these weapons make sense (yes, they're immobile, but gangers are all about protecting their patch of turf), and given the limited access to advanced technology, this kind of resourcefullness is what will seperate the best gangs from the worst. Of course once a gang becomes the best, it gets access to the kind of high tech weaponry it didn't have in the first place, which is why you don't see everyone using trebuchet's. The sort of gangs we're talking about here are the one's that have the smarts to make it to the top, they just haven't quite got there yet.

The other thing that's nice about weapons like this is that their immobility means that the gangers have to use the terrain well to bring them into play. It's a nice way to emphasise that whole "Home Ground" advantage when the runners get lead into a cul-de-sac that the gangers have already ranged their trebuchet on.

Also, having the players look and catch sight of a decent sized chunk of masonry plummeting towards them is just awesome.

The other thing I like about this is that it still fits with the whole "Gangers should not be as big a threat as top level corp-sec" thing I was going on about before. Whilst clearly dangerous, these kind of weapons are also primitive and very inaccurate. They scare the players because anything can figure out that having a chunk of roof-top land on you is going to be lights out chummer, but the actual risk to the characters is not nearly as high as that posed by a cyberzombie with an SMG. It'd make for a good, high adrenaline high risk fight scene, with players having whole buildings coming down around them from the damage these weapons are doing, but it would still fit in the low end of the game, when the runners are still pretty "Street Level" as Catalyst are calling it (starting characters, 400 BP).

On the subject of other ideas for interesting mooks, consider that many workers in the SR world have skillwires, often at quite high ratings. Chipped labour is a massive part of how the world works (see Unwired). So what happens if a bunch of these chipped workers manage to get their hands on some combat softs?

[ravensoracle]

I love the whole trebuchet and Potato cannon idea, so stealing it. Now I would make low tech artillery shells for the trebuchet. Think of filling soda cans full of a napalm mixture and resealing them. Put them in the trebuchet's sling and launch dozens of mini molotavs at the PC's in one shot. You could cover an entire area in flamable chemicals in one round and it only takes one of the cans set up to ingite on impact to set it all ablaze.

I could see a smart trog throwing a fews rounds of the Engine or concrete blocks and force the PC's to take cover, then follow with a barage of flaming minibombs possibly with a couple of grenades added to the mix to really put the fear into PC's.

[hyzmarca]

Trebuchets aren't necessarily immobile. They tend to have very large wheels and ropes to pull them with. Of course, given the advent of the internal combustion engine, it is quite possible to attach a motor to a wheeled trebuchuet and use it as self-propelled artillery.

Gangs in real life, the good ones at least, often take up the role of local government, providing services that the elected government is unwilling or unable to provide. Policing, of course, is the most obvious. The places where cops fear to tread still need rule of law, so the local gang becomes the de-facto police force. Their justice is usually swift and brutal, sort of like Street Judges from Judge Dread, but it can be effective. More affluent gangs also give back to the community financially by providing such government services as welfare, job placement assistance, rehabilitation services, building community centers, parks, and schools, building and maintaining hospitals or clinics, giving low-interest small business loans, and that sort of thing.

There is a huge advantage to this, two really. The first is that it makes the community a nicer place to live, which benefits the gangers as much as anyone. The second is that it engenders loyalty from the local populace. The people are substantially less likely to testify about you putting a cap in some punk's head if their kids spend time and the free day care center you run while they go to work at their two below-minimum-wage jobs.


As for rockets, well the weapons manufacturers have to sell them to someone. This is particularly true with salvaged and returned equipment. You can't sell a returned item as new, and most governments aren't going to pay sticker price for a used rocket launcher that may or may not fire, so you dump them on the local gangers at 5-10% of retail. That way you don't have to pay storage costs and you get a little bit of money back.

[Dr Funfrock]

As for rockets, well the weapons manufacturers have to sell them to someone. This is particularly true with salvaged and returned equipment. You can't sell a returned item as new, and most governments aren't going to pay sticker price for a used rocket launcher that may or may not fire, so you dump them on the local gangers at 5-10% of retail. That way you don't have to pay storage costs and you get a little bit of money back.

I don't buy it. Much easier to sell them off at the same price in some third world country where the local laws are non-existant, so you don't get shut down for dealing in military arms to civilians. Yes, SR corps tend to be a lot more bullish about ignoring the law, but it's a simple matter of getting the same return for less risk. Mercenary companies will also take a risk on that kind of hardware, as will many legitimate third world militaries.

As for trebuchets, I perhaps should have said "Tactically immobile." Even towing with a truck, the time taken to move a trebuchet is too great to mean anything in a firefight. It's the difference between field artillery and a guy with a rocket launcher. The artillery is considerably less mobile, because it simply cannot traverse a lot of terrain that a guy with a rocket launcher can. Then there's the time taken to set up and fire an artillery piece, versus the time it takes to shoulder and fire a rocket launcher.

That aside, I agree with you entirely on the stuff about gangs protecting and policing the local community. There's plenty of material on this, both in the Shadowrun sourcebooks, and in real life accounts of how gangs work. Many crack gangs pour hundreds of thousands of dollars into improving their community, for the very reasons you specified.

[PBTHHHHT]

the one thing I can think of that would allow for cops to be able to move through several blocks unmolested by the local gangs that control that area. Pay them off. Tell them we're gonna go past, we're not gonna mess with you, we're after someone else. Look, we dropped a box or two of good clean clothes, food, electronics... (stuff that got misfiled from the evidence warehouse or something). Otherwise it could be messy for both sides, really I think one thing is LS and other corpsec sometimes will buy off one gang for info on another. Some of the gangers might someday hope to become runners or even get out of the barren life, well, what better way than get a contact with someone outside and pass on info/favors/etc...? Plus, the LS raid may get at the rival gangers who've they've been warring for the past few years, hmmm... something to hurt them with. Of course, it'd be a good idea not to let it be known they deal with LS, but other than that, anything goes. It's all biz.

edit: oh and the corp/LS can also provide other things, say the ganger's have a fav member or relative who's up for parole soon. What better way to sweeten the deal? Or how about access to some medical facility since maybe someone is really sick, maybe a visit to the best cancer care facility in Seattle would help that person, now wouldn't that be nice?
There's other leverages to get favors and info from rival gangs that a show of force, while satisfying, might now always accomplish.

[knasser]

the one thing I can think of that would allow for cops to be able to move through several blocks unmolested by the local gangs that control that area...

You know I was certain you were going to say something other than what you did, there, because I can think of one thing that would definitely allow the cops to move through several blocks unmolested, too. Air support! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Why fight through miles of uncontrolled city blocks when you can fly right over in your Lone Star helicopter? When the gangs can control the air space, then the cops and their backers really will have lost control of an area. I'm not sure how gangers can get air support though. I suppose you could build gliders but I think we're getting a little too ewoks, now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[PBTHHHHT]

Air support is great, but it can only do so much due to the concentrations of buildings and how people can travel through the buildings on the block without being observed. The advent of drones will aid in the security forces in getting eyes in the air and guns too. Still, the helo will have to hover/land to get officers at the location and as we've seen, unguided rpgs and machine gun fire can cause havoc, bypassing any systems used to detect any lock-ons that a helo (or whatever craft) would carry. Sure, they may have to fire a salvo of rpg's, but all they need is one or two to hit to cause havoc to the craft. But yes, it's one additional option, couple that with the other option of being able to move through at least some of the territories unmolested will give LS more options which is necessary to conduct operations in a Z-zone.

Gangers could get some air support via cheap drones, depending on how one's game world is run. Heck all you need is speedy little air drones that are used as kamikaze, even if they don't have explosives, to go after a crafts air intake or rotors (if the drone is of hefty enough body/armor, it could do a number to craft). It might not work for high flying craft unless they're LTA drones, but for the low flying ones that are not flying fast (including hovering/landing), you could do something to them.

[Stahlseele]

also, magics . . a simple levitate spell to lift up something maybe the size of a motorbike and let it drop onto the chopper or what have you . .

[Whipstitch]

As a GM, I am not a believer that drones should be an easy target for the Hacker to take over all the damned time. A Hacker in the 'trix in my games is a lot like a Samurai meatside: Yeah, he's better than the opposition, but at the end of the day, he needs to get in, do his job and get out. A successful hack job is typically no more permanent a solution to the problem of enemy forces than a grenade launcher; it might take out a portion of the immediate threat, but that's by no means reason to stick around very long. So, really, in my games, the order of the day is drones, drones, and MORE drones; a runner taking cover behind a parked car or some office furniture may not really enjoy any protection from an aerial or rail drone attacking them from above with full bursts.

[Sixgun_Sage]

Perhaps this is why I don't play SR4.

I am really absolutely floored that they would make it a rule that all grunts use the same stats.

They don't, toturi is ignoring the ranges for prime runners and relying on a very specific interpretation of a specific sentence.

[Dr.Rockso]

They don't, toturi is ignoring the ranges for prime runners and relying on a very specific interpretation of a specific sentence.

Practicing thread necromancy, huh?(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[nezumi]

Talking with me is always a good reason to resurrect threads.