Grunt Survival Guide, How to kill PCs with low-powered opposition. Options

[TommyTwoToes]

As I have stated before, these stats are the ones printed. There is no rule that all Grunts use the same stats, but there is a limited amount of stats printed for Grunts. The NPC Grunts are example of those NPCs of their caliber and skillset.

If the GM wants to change or alter them, he is free to do so, but then those altered stats would be no longer RAW. Anyone with a bit of sense would understand this. So if you want to say "I as the GM decided to screw the PCs over and stat these gangbangers with good tactical skills and ingenious minds, when most of their peers spend their time, bullying people and getting doped out", then it is up to you.

I don't think that adding a 1 or 2 point knowldge skill (especially one that fits in with the ganger's background) as screwing the players. And really, that is what we are talking about, 1 or 2 in a knowledge skill.

Your emphasis on playing using only RAW grunts is countered by the second line of your sig.

IF you were going to require gangers to come up with ideas for defense that they could see in any one of a hundred action movies or comedies, then the application of situational modifiers to the rolls could easily make up for the lack of skills. Also true for the social roll to convince others to follow along.

And now to get the train back on the tracks. How about and Ewokesque (ha, yes I used Ewokesque in a sentance) attack with concrete blocks or something on ropes swinging out of an ally to hit the PC's car. Or to hit that Ares riot control vehicle.

[Dr Funfrock]

As I have stated before, these stats are the ones printed. There is no rule that all Grunts use the same stats, but there is a limited amount of stats printed for Grunts. The NPC Grunts are example of those NPCs of their caliber and skillset.

If the GM wants to change or alter them, he is free to do so, but then those altered stats would be no longer RAW. Anyone with a bit of sense would understand this. So if you want to say "I as the GM decided to screw the PCs over and stat these gangbangers with good tactical skills and ingenious minds, when most of their peers spend their time, bullying people and getting doped out", then it is up to you.

I can't believe I'm actually wasting my time with this, but:

There will be situations,
however, where roleplaying alone can’t resolve encounters. The follow-
ing sections provide guidelines for gamemasters resolving instances
where NPCs might need to be fleshed out.
Ultimately, individual NPCs are tailored by the gamemaster to
fit the needs of the adventure or campaign he is running and the role
he intends them to play in the story. While the gamemaster is free to
give NPCs any stats he deems necessary, he should strive to make them
consistent with the tone of the game and to take into consideration the
challenge or assistance NPCs are intended to offer player characters
when devising their stats.
The following sections offer guidelines for running NPCs as
grunts (groups of adversaries with similar statistics for ease of combat
resolution), prime runners (major characters), and contacts (the people
the player characters know who can help them through the course of
the game). These categories are not all-inclusive and are in fact simply
guidelines to facilitate the gamemaster’s management of NPCs.
If the gamemaster wants to build an NPC that fits none of these
labels, he should not feel obliged to shoehorn the character into these
rules. In fact, many NPCs in published Shadowrun adventures will not
qualify as grunts, prime runners, or contacts, but are instead incidental
characters designed to fulfill a specific role or function.

Emphasis mine.

RAW enough for you?

[toturi]

I don't think that adding a 1 or 2 point knowldge skill (especially one that fits in with the ganger's background) as screwing the players. And really, that is what we are talking about, 1 or 2 in a knowledge skill.

Your emphasis on playing using only RAW grunts is countered by the second line of your sig.

IF you were going to require gangers to come up with ideas for defense that they could see in any one of a hundred action movies or comedies, then the application of situational modifiers to the rolls could easily make up for the lack of skills. Also true for the social roll to convince others to follow along.

And now to get the train back on the tracks. How about and Ewokesque (ha, yes I used Ewokesque in a sentance) attack with concrete blocks or something on ropes swinging out of an ally to hit the PC's car. Or to hit that Ares riot control vehicle.

Since that 1 or 2 points in a Knowledge skill that would otherwise default, that can well be a difference of 2 or 3 dice. Really, what we are talking about is the difference between a success and no success at all.

My emphasis on using RAW is reinforced by the second line of my sig.

The ideas for defense that they can see in the trids they could roll using a Memory Test (if they can even remember what they had for dinner last night). But executing it right so that it actually works, now that's where the Knowledge skills come in.

IIRC in the Star Wars RPG, Ewoks used to have bonuses to primitive trap construction or something along those lines. So if your ganger was an Ewok, sure go wild.

[toturi]

Emphasis mine.

RAW enough for you?

No, because while that rule is RAW, its execution is not. The NPCs statted in the book are As Written. That Rule is As Written but the NPCs the GM customises would not be (unless the GM happens to be one of the writers and he puts them into an SR book), as you have quoted and I have already stated.

If the GM wants to change or alter them, he is free to do so, but then those altered stats would be no longer RAW. Anyone with a bit of sense would understand this.

[Doc Chase]

This argument is silly. The rulebook even says the stats are guidelines and not concrete. If you want to argue for the sake of arguement, choose something worth kvetching about.

On subject, I just don't see static defenses to be in a ganger's best interest. Sure, there will be a few, but the point behind most gangs is to have a presence in their areas, lest others muscle in on their territory. To that effect, they would use a more 'active' style defense system based on scouts and reaction forces. I'd think it would be more difficult for the runners to get to the doss in question as the opposition would mount an active defense away from their location. Booby traps would be nice, but they wouldn't be incredibly destructive.

[toturi]

This argument is silly. The rulebook even says the stats are guidelines and not concrete. If you want to argue for the sake of arguement, choose something worth kvetching about.

No, I am arguing for the sake of RAW, and that is something worth "kvetching" about.

[Sixgun_Sage]

No, I am arguing for the sake of RAW, and that is something worth "kvetching" about.

Except the rules say those statted out NPC's are merely exemplars, templates that can be used for the sake of ease of play and are not in fact meant to be complete.

[toturi]

Except the rules say those statted out NPC's are merely exemplars, templates that can be used for the sake of ease of play and are not in fact meant to be complete.

Except that the statted NPCs are the ones that are As Written and while the rules say that if the GM wants to build an NPC that fit none of the labels, he should not feel obliged to shoehorn the character into the rules, that does not mean that the character he creates is necessarily RAW.

[Dumori]

All toturi responding with, as I read it, is that any PCs, GM made NPCs are not RAW they might follow RAW or they might not but seeing as any thing you make that on wirten can't be the RAW its not.

[Doc Chase]

No, I am arguing for the sake of RAW, and that is something worth "kvetching" about.

No, you're not. You're arguing for your interpretation of RAW, and given the arguments you've put forth it's my opinion that your interpretation isn't worth bupkis.

You are specifically taking something that the authors have expressed as not concrete and arguing that it is. It's a tired argument and one I wish I didn't have to see.

[toturi]

No, you're not. You're arguing for your interpretation of RAW, and given the arguments you've put forth it's my opinion that your interpretation isn't worth bupkis.

You are specifically taking something that the authors have expressed as not concrete and arguing that it is. It's a tired argument and one I wish I didn't have to see.

It does not matter what your opinion of my interpretation is. Especially since I am not arguing my interpretation of RAW, but am stating the RAW. That the NPCs in the books do not have something. I am taking something the authors have expressed as examples in the book and arguing that that is as they have written. It is my opinion that if you can see the Beat Cop as it is written in the book as having a Body of 5 or the Tir Ghosts having a Stealth Skill group of 7, you need help.

The authors have expressed that the NPCs as samples but have statted them concretely.

[svenftw]

Ahhh... nothing like a good ol' Dumpshock Semantic Meltdown to start the day.

[Doc Chase]

It does not matter what your opinion of my interpretation is. Especially since I am not arguing my interpretation of RAW, but am stating the RAW. That the NPCs in the books do not have something. I am taking something the authors have expressed as examples in the book and arguing that that is as they have written. It is my opinion that if you can see the Beat Cop as it is written in the book as having a Body of 5 or the Tir Ghosts having a Stealth Skill group of 7, you need help.

The authors have expressed that the NPCs as samples but have statted them concretely.

You can argue that Leviticus bans them all you want, but I'm still going to enjoy cheddar and a slice of tomato on my burger.

If your contribution is to lord over your interpretation of RAW, then you've contributed. If that's it, kindly move along. I'd much rather discuss low-power tactics so I don't have to throw an army of mooks at my players than argue semantics.

[Apathy]

I think that a temporary tube to stick the bullet landmine in would help. But one would be better of building "zip"gun/rifle traps. Just a smooth bore tube packed with power and shot or made to load a certain caliber round. Sure SS and a bugger to reload but build them in the the walls just wallpered over or the floors ect and you an set up kill rooms the when trigered volly a good number of muskets across the room. If you have much more to burn nuyen wise do the dame but with metalstorm tech to allow multiple uses or have it set to volly a set amount of tubes only, with tigeres setting off different any maybe slightly overlapping sets. I would treat like supressive fire aganst a suprised target at least the first time it happens.

In Vietnam, toe-poppers used small sections of bamboo to act as a channel for the bullet/nail combo to ride in. Useful for supply route denial and required allies to constantly re-sweep 'cleared' trails. Cheap, but required more time to set up than a tripwire or punji stick because of all the digging involved. In urban environments it would be less useful because all the traveled paths are paved. If you were going to do it you'd need a small rock drill to cut a hold in the concrete or asphalt. Drill hole could act as the channel for bullet/nail, eliminating need for bamboo/pipe/whatever. Once the holes are in place arming/disarming would be easy - just drop the bullet in the hole or use a piece of tape to fish bullet back out.

[toturi]

If your contribution is to lord over your interpretation of RAW, then you've contributed. If that's it, kindly move along. I'd much rather discuss low-power tactics so I don't have to throw an army of mooks at my players than argue semantics.

That's the whole point! If they have "low-power tactics" such as people have discussed here, they won't be mooks anymore! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

These are low cost/resource tactics but more likely to be the product of Hannibal Smith than a slum kid who slotted "The best of Urban Brawl 2070".

[Neraph]

You can argue that Leviticus bans them all you want, but I'm still going to enjoy cheddar and a slice of tomato on my burger.

I don't know where Leviticus bans the use of tomatoes, and the cheese/beef thing is only for preventing the mother's milk being cooked with the child. In the case of a hamburger, the beef is likely from angus, and the milk from a dairy cow - which is almost assuredly not the mother of an angus. I don't know where you got those ideas from, but they didn't understand the laws as written or the market as it is today.

[Neraph]

The cabin wouldn´t drop much in case of modern lifts, as the brakes work in case of cable failure. The explosive action on the other hand would be a grenade attack without deviation, with (being generous) a +4 dicepool mod for the damage resistance test. Deadly trick.

10 DV at 2 meters away is only deadly if you're naked. Even then, with a body of ~4, you're not dead - just severely injured. If you had 2+ grenades, that's more of a problem.

The problem is with any decent amount of armor you'll only be taking a few (2-3) points of damage per grenade regularly, if at all. Three grenades just make you angry, and you patch up with First Aid before exiting the wreck (which, because elevator brakes are on the top and bottom of the elevator, will prevent the heap from moving). Basically you'll just tick off the team because they had to take a minute to patch up and take the stairs.

EDIT: Now a shaped charge set up on the top of the elevator is another matter. That is decidedly more deadly.

[Doc Chase]

I don't know where Leviticus bans the use of tomatoes, and the cheese/beef thing is only for preventing the mother's milk being cooked with the child. In the case of a hamburger, the beef is likely from angus, and the milk from a dairy cow - which is almost assuredly not the mother of an angus. I don't know where you got those ideas from, but they didn't understand the laws as written or the market as it is today.

Are you-It was a joke, meant to outline the inanity of saying because it's written down, it must be interpreted exactly as such no matter how inane that is.

And now this is getting worse. It ends now. Grunt Survival Guide, not theological discussion or RAW discussion. Cripes, people.

[Macavity]

or simply pry the doors open.

unless the building is fairly recent, i dont think the elevator will be of the kind where the hacker can go in remotely and override...

Keep in mind that pretty much all building elevators have been tied into Matrix systems since at least the 2050s when SR1 shadowrunners were hacking in to open doors and call elevators. Unless it was built before the Crash of '29, it's most likely had security cameras, door locks and elevators tied into the matrix during the techno boom of the 40s and 50s.

[Macavity]

10 DV at 2 meters away is only deadly if you're naked. Even then, with a body of ~4, you're not dead - just severely injured. If you had 2+ grenades, that's more of a problem.

The problem is with any decent amount of armor you'll only be taking a few (2-3) points of damage per grenade regularly, if at all. Three grenades just make you angry, and you patch up with First Aid before exiting the wreck (which, because elevator brakes are on the top and bottom of the elevator, will prevent the heap from moving). Basically you'll just tick off the team because they had to take a minute to patch up and take the stairs.

EDIT: Now a shaped charge set up on the top of the elevator is another matter. That is decidedly more deadly.

An alternative to this - as seen in the movie Lucky Number Sleven - is the guard sitting on top of the elevator with a shotgun & monitor showing who is inside the elevator. Cheap, easy to wire up, and easy to replace and even semi-aim-able. Plus it gives the PC's a chance - if they're observant, smart and not cocky - to figure out there's someone up there, figure out where he is and take care of it.

Always exciting for your players when they figure out a trap.

Another low-tech idea? Large cages of devil rats on top of a drop-down trap door in the roof of the elevator. You stop the elevator between floors, and when they go to drop open the door in the ceiling they get a face-full of nicely infectious devil rat.

Alternatively, place a bucket full of kerosene on top of that trap door. When the PCs pop the door they get doused in kerosene - the fumes of which light on fire the second they try to shoot any of their guns.

[Macavity]

And now to get the train back on the tracks. How about and Ewokesque (ha, yes I used Ewokesque in a sentance) attack with concrete blocks or something on ropes swinging out of an ally to hit the PC's car. Or to hit that Ares riot control vehicle.

I think that gangers are probably more likely to steal a large truck or 18 wheeler and use that to hit the PC's car. See the armored car robbery at the beginning of the movie Heat.

Also, ramming a car against a wall keeps the PC's suck inside as they can't open the doors. it doesn't take too much to toss gasoline on the roof of the car after that - works especially well if there are already bullet holes in windows for the gasoline to pour into the car with.

A power drill can make its own holes in the roof of the car, if the ganger doesn't mind the risk of being shot through the roof. After that gasoline on the roof means that any shots the runners make set it off, cooking them inside the car.

After you pin the car with a garbage truck against the wall, you could also unload at the windows with AK-47s (cheaper than bread in some countries) and then throw molotov cocktails. Easy and pretty risk free.

[Doc Chase]

You wouldn't even need the molotovs unless the car is armored. Why bring the fire brigade into it if you don't have to?

As to the mention of explosives in an elevator - I feel like the rules for explosions in a confined space aren't being properly utilized. That can seriously amp up the DV on a grenade.

[Dr Funfrock]

Simplest "explosive in an elevator" is to just have a mook pull open the service hatch at the top, throw a grenade in, and slam the hatch closed. It's a nasty one because a lot of the time you can catch the whole team. I'd call it a surprise test (with the mook getting the +6 for ambushing). A fast sammie might still beat him on the test and plug the guy before he can lob the grenade. Otherwise... ouch.

Also:

If your contribution is to lord over your interpretation of RAW, then you've contributed. If that's it, kindly move along. I'd much rather discuss low-power tactics so I don't have to throw an army of mooks at my players than argue semantics.

Three cheers. Couldn't agree more.

[Critias]

So, you guys that are arguing with him...have you just never read any of Toturi's posts before, or what? The guy likes the RAW, and that's that. He's not derailing the thread, the rest of you are when you reply and try to change his mind. Just let it be, and keep sharing ideas. Everyone wins.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Little surprised this one hasn't been brought up before: sex.

Think about what is most likely the state of an individual when they are getting their groove on? Surely that would help out enterprising grunts. At the very least a decent runner would keep a weapon nearby but sleeping in their armor and with full kit?

Other than catching them with their pants down, it could serve as a way to spy on them.

Hmm, and what about pick pockets? Lighten that armory they are carrying a bit and make a profit to boot. And give em a moral quandary too perhaps, even the toughest runners might not want to be known for having mowed down a pack of snot nosed, sticky fingered gutter punk children - or if they are the type to sink even that low, have the gang "accidentally" film them in the act.

Speaking of that, wouldn't there be other skill sets than just combat related ones that grunts might employ that would give runners no end of headaches if they pissed off the gang?