Shadowrun 4 Anniversary Changes Options

[Fuchs]

I disagree with the notion that a game company shouldn't care about the old gamers, since I suspect that those "elder gamers" might also be responsible for drawing in a number of those new gamers into the hobby, or the system. And angry gamers make for harder advertising to battle word of mouth - especially online.

[hermit]

Yes, brutally dismissing the old times, like Lonsing did, can kill product lines. It happened with German localised nWoD and nearly happened with German localised Shadowrun (though with the latter, a number of other factors came in too). However, the elder gamers should not be the center focus of the company's marketing, I think Critas is right there.

[Prime Mover]

I think the poll speaks pretty clearly here.
If your the majority rules sort of person.
And not if you a frisky anarchist.

[bluedragon7]

Regarding play-age vs postcount
I played SR since 19 years in all editions, especially on conventions (up to 30 of these a year with 3-5 sessions each, besides having 2 regular weekly groups, being a student has some advantage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) where you play by the book, no house rules. I have been supporting Fanpro with official gamemastering for years and do so now for Pegasus (the new german Publisher) being involved in the development of german SR-Missions.
Even though i did not post here that much since 2002 you could hardly call me a casual gamer.

I like the change of attribute karma cost as it was previously too cheap and not in line with skill cost.

One of my Characters lost 300 Karma in the process and i would have preferred the change with the introduction of the karma chargen. And i also see the need to give out more karma to compensate. But still i like the change and am happy about.

[crizh]

On the contrary I think the poll clearly indicates that Catalyst have messed up here.

From the shouting that was going on elsewhere I half expected 85-90% to be in favour of the changes. This would have clearly indicated that it was just a vocal, shouty, old guard minority that didn't like them.

This has not proved to be the case. To those that say this is not a representative sample I agree. A vast number of lurkers that ordinarily have little to say have contributed to these threads and they overwhelmingly support the changes.

The naysayers may be in the minority but with those sort of numbers we could still get elected as POTUS...

[crizh]

I like the change of attribute karma cost as it was previously too cheap and not in line with skill cost.

One of my Characters lost 300 Karma in the process and i would have preferred the change with the introduction of the karma chargen. And i also see the need to give out more karma to compensate. But still i like the change and am happy about.

Can I just ask, did you vote leave-as-is for the Attribute change?

[hermit]

I have been supporting Fanpro with official gamemastering for years and do so now for Pegasus (the new german Publisher) being involved in the development of german SR-Missions.

Uhm ... what's your handle there, or what was your handle on the FP forums?

On the contrary I think the poll clearly indicates that Catalyst have messed up here.

From the shouting that was going on elsewhere I half expected 85-90% to be in favour of the changes. This would have clearly indicated that it was just a vocal, shouty, old guard minority that didn't like them.

Oh come on. Spinning yourself a winner because you did not lose as abysmally as you may or may not have expected (where else have you seen said shouting? Links?) is just pathetic. Accept your views are not shared by about 66% of Dumpshock forumites and move on.

This has not proved to be the case. To those that say this is not a representative sample I agree. A vast number of lurkers that ordinarily have little to say have contributed to these threads and they overwhelmingly support the changes.

And it rained on election day which kept your voters from attending the polls (but not the opposition's). RIGHT. And lurkers suck. Crizh, you sound like a politican who cannot accept defeat. Do you really want that?

The naysayers may be in the minority but with those sort of numbers we could still get elected as POTUS...

Nope, not even that would work. There're enough votes for the small states. With 45% of the votes, maybe, but with 33%? No way.

Stop sulking, move on.

[DireRadiant]

When polling, you must always consider how your sample compares to the population as a whole.

[Demonseed Elite]

Yes, brutally dismissing the old times, like Lonsing did, can kill product lines. It happened with German localised nWoD and nearly happened with German localised Shadowrun (though with the latter, a number of other factors came in too). However, the elder gamers should not be the center focus of the company's marketing, I think Critas is right there.

Well, Catalyst hardly brutally dismisses old timers. Hell, most of the freelancers are old timers and the line developer was a long-time player before he ever worked officially on Shadowrun. And the old timers certainly get their voices heard here on Dumpshock. And most of these errata changes are made in response to the players voicing up concerns here.

[Fuchs]

Well, Catalyst hardly brutally dismisses old timers. Hell, most of the freelancers are old timers and the line developer was a long-time player before he ever worked officially on Shadowrun. And the old timers certainly get their voices heard here on Dumpshock. And most of these errata changes are made in response to the players voicing up concerns here.

Indeed. Just because one disagrees with a change and one has been playing for a long time doesn't mean all other oldtimers think the same way. I should know that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[hermit]

Well, Catalyst hardly brutally dismisses old timers. Hell, most of the freelancers are old timers and the line developer was a long-time player before he ever worked officially on Shadowrun. And the old timers certainly get their voices heard here on Dumpshock. And most of these errata changes are made in response to the players voicing up concerns here.

Sorry to not have been clearer. I was referring to the way FanPro Germany and especially line developer Chris Lonsing treated old time SR fans. Yes, Catalys is a lot different there.

[bluedragon7]

Can I just ask, did you vote leave-as-is for the Attribute change?

Yes i did
Surely some of my characters that previously exploited the low cost attributes now have some serious problems, but that is even more proof for the necessety to change it


@ hermit the same as here, did not post that much there (Fanpro) either (but a _lot_ more than here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) and at Pegasus i am nearly only active in the internal forum

[crizh]

Yes i did

But then you went on to say that you thought that it necessitated an increase in karma awards.

Perhaps you would have been more accurate to vote other?

[hermit]

the same as here, did not post that much there (Fanpro) either (but a _lot_ more than here wink.gif ) and at Pegasus i am nearly only active in the internal forum

Did you have he same avatar on FanPro? I am trying to remember whether I know you, sorry to bother. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Surely some of my characters that previously exploited the low cost attributes now have some serious problems, but that is even more proof for the necessety to change it

WORD.

[bluedragon7]

No, i recomment the change and want to leave it as it is now (SR4A)

If i then want a faster advancement i need to up the karma granted ( but with the suggested 9 per run i am quite satisfied (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

@Hermit np, i had a different Avatar, same as used now on Pegasus

[crizh]

If i then want a faster advancement i need to up the karma granted ( but with the suggested 9 per run i am quite satisfied (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

So you're going to be houseruling karma awards?

That 9 karma thing was Synner being wrong. As usual. It ain't supported by the SR4A rules or any official ruling.

So for RAW games, Missions and the like, you would agree that you would prefer a change to higher karma awards (about 9 per run)?

[bluedragon7]

No, i am just fine if the full range of up to 11 is used but the problem is more to tell GMs to use what is in the book. I believe just about every GM has its own houserule for karma.
If i get only 3,96 karma on average for successful runs the GM is awarding not enough by the book.
Even the Missions seem to be against RAW in this regard

[Roy Fokker]

Many of us think they are flat wrong or unnecessary. *snip* What I think a huge number of your customers can agree on here is that were not 100% happy with the changes

On the contrary I think the poll clearly indicates that Catalyst have messed up here.

From the shouting that was going on elsewhere I half expected 85-90% to be in favour of the changes. This would have clearly indicated that it was just a vocal, shouty, old guard minority that didn't like them.

so what you're saying is that "many of us" and "huge numbers" you mentioned equates to the 10-15% you were expecting to agree with you??? you can't have it both ways and claim a win no matter what the outcome. a large majority of people either like the changes or don't care and that's a poll of the people that are the MOST interested in shadowrun because they take the time to find, register, and post on dumpshock. if you poll the people who simply just play the game for fun once a week or two, i think you'll find your 85%-90% in that much bigger pool.

i respect your passion for shadowrun and hope you continue playing. although i generally like the SR4 rules more than most other RPGs, i (like most people) use house rules and i suspect you'll have to also now that the newer version of the rules doesn't agree with you. i consider it a sign of good faith that catalyst is coming out with an erratta telling people of the changes. i used to play heavy gear and heavy gear blitz made by DP9; it's a great ruleset from a desperate, greedy company. within two years of the first printing of heavy gear blitz, they announced an "updated" version that will be coupled with an erratta for existing players. when push came to shove, they released the book making their other books obsolete (including one published less than 1 year earlier) without the previously promised erratta.

i don't know let alone agree with all the changes (since i didn't buy the pdf) but i think the overall effect of this book will be positive for the majority of consumers; that's a win for catalyst. i recently started GMing my first SR4 campaign with 6 SR4 newbs; they all HATE the organization of the current main book and dislike the majority of the art. the majority of them are also not going to be buying the additional splat books outside their chosen archetype so the index in the back is a big boon for when i don't want to literally stop the game so i can look up something in a book only i possess. now i can simply tell them to find it in the index and look it up themselves. when i mentioned the ads to them, they all liked that they would be in there. despite the fact that all of them are at least internet capable (can surf, ebay, email, and get on our group mailing list), only ONE of them has registered or even expressed an interest in dumpshock or other SR4 web resources. those ads help them decide what books to get.

[Leehouse]

Just a note: that change would make skill groups either more expensive than raising skills individually (for groups with only 3 skills), or the exact same cost as raising skills individually (for the groups with 4). Since the only benefit to using skill groups is the reduced cost, that pretty much eliminates groups from the game.

I realized that after I posted I may have to rethink this, as I don't want skill groups going as low as 3, but I want skills to be discounted to some degree. Hm.

[crizh]

so what you're saying is that "many of us" and "huge numbers" you mentioned equates to the 10-15% you were expecting to agree with you???

I said half expecting. We Scot's are used to disappointment. I thought that if I was wrong in my first opinion then the situation would be my second quoted opinion.

As that isn't what happened I am pleasantly surprised to be proved at least partially correct.

Clear?

[Draco18s]

We forgot a poll on the Device Rating.

I do however, note that 60% of the DSF users like SR4A at the time of this post.

[Muspellsheimr]

Actually Adepts are not worse touched by this changes as the most expensive powers have been greatly reduced in power point prices. And if you think your groups Adepts are advancing to slow, how about using the optional rule for Adept Initiation?

I have introduced changes giving nearly 50% of Adept powers a significant power increase &/or reduced cost. We also use the Adept Initiation rule.

The samurai still is at least as good as the Adept. My changes where far greater & widespread than Catalysts. Yes, the Karma increase kicks Adepts in the nuts. I am, however, fine with how it affects Magicians, & think Technomancers need a re-write of rules, regardless of Resonance costs, but as far as Adepts are concerned, not nearly enough was changed in their list of powers.



As for everyone saying I should have included OR &/or Device Rating - the poll only supported up to 3 topics, & I felt these were the most important.

[Critias]

I'm not saying a game company shouldn't care about established gamers at all, or should go out of their way to "brutally dismiss" us. I'm saying our opinions don't carry more weight than newer gamers just because they're newer, and that, if push comes to shove, if anything the opposite might be closer to the truth. I do my best not to be bitter (about that in particular, I've got a few other chips still on my shoulder, don't worry), to accept that not everyone has the same priorities and expectations as I do, and to game on as best I can. Those who would try to force a game company to capitulate to older gamers at the perceived expense of newer ones are at best going to lose that fight, and at worst going to get what they ask for (and kill their favorite game).

Backing a game company into a corner and forcing it to choose whether to cater to it's old audience or to draw in a new one will, invariably, see the game company choosing what's best for the company, which might not be what everyone thinks is what's best for the game.

Ideally, of course, new products would appeal to both experience levels, everyone would masturbate wildly the first time they skimmed a new supplement because each page was even more awesome than the last, and the game would be so incredible that character creation made our farts smell like strawberries.

[Ayeohx]

Wow Crit, not only are you an excellent wordsmith but you can squeeze in fart jokes and masturbation. I am impressed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I totally agree with you but I'd like to point out that, in my opinion, Catalyst is starting to swing back around to the feeling of 1st and 2nd edition again (minus the Laubenstein). 3rd edition didn't do it for me, it seemed kind of devoid of the gritty realism that was portraid in 1st and 2nd edition. Even 4th edition seemed a bit cold but I liked the rules. The work done on SR4A has gone far to add that special ambiance back into SR. For me at least.

[Draco18s]

Wow Crit, not only are you an excellent wordsmith but you can squeeze in fart jokes and masturbation. I am impressed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Now get in a rectal thermometer joke! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)