Mental Exercise: Anti-Dragon Task Force, Government/Megacorp Forces taking on Dragons Options

[Fortune]

I never said watching TV was the only source of information. Humans go to school to learn warfare. They write books on tactics and strategy. These (and I'm sure many other resources) are all available for use as a learning aid.

My point is that there is an awful lot of handwaving in regard to coordination. There are a lot of assumptions being made, and as with every other thread of this kind, it will eventually degenerate into 'Army wins!', 'Does not!', 'Does too!' without a solid scenario adjudicated by a impartial referee.

[Cthulhudreams]

I'm not sure why a DNI doesn't allow you to rip the knowledge of a mage right out of his brain, especially with his consent. This would make it easy to identify the dragons position.

IN other news, no, watching it on the TV won't tell you. But there are plenty of ex military strategic, operational and tactical personnel who will, for money, provide consulting services on exactly that sort of thing. There are even more of them in shadowrun verse. I'll give you a clue. They are called mercenaries.

[mfb]

Mana Static can't be hidden in. It's a completely invalid tactic. If you're in the Mana Static they can still see you because it doesn't block line of sight.

but it does affect astral visibility. and if visibility on the astral is bad enough, spotting things on the astral stops being automatic. you can spot a person in an orange jumpsuit automatically, unless it's dark and foggy out.

[Angelone]

You all seem to be forgetting about air defense assests. PATRIOT, if you want, can detect a softball size object a few hundred miles away. The missles travel faster than a dragon ever dreamed about. I'm not even going to get into THAAD or any of the other crazy stuff they are coming out with. Sure the dragon can use concealment but you also have shorter range air defense which can feed info to other units. Even them just sending up the astral sightings you can still hit the dragon no problem.

Shoot, I think Puff the Magic Dragon here and here would take out a GD. Not to mention the newer AC-130 shown here.

[mfb]

i'm not sure i see how shorter-range sensors would work better than longer-range sensors against magical concealment.

[Angelone]

Not sensors the actual people on the ground as it were. Shorad (stinger) is mostly aim by eye so they can say "Hey, it's by (insert landmark or cordinates here) hit it." and the longer range air defense can. They could also patch the astral perciever's targetting to us and we could work with that.

[mfb]

Concealment works against eyes, too. not to mention invisibility spells. as for astral perception, there's some debate on what measures the dragon could take against that, and how well such measures would work.

[Guardian]

Without rehashing the discussion from another thread, this thread is about how a government or megacorp force could kill a rampaging Great Dragon.

Essayons. In a word, VBIED.

If my math is right, overcoming the magic, edge, dodge, soak, and condition monitor of a great western dragon would take a 107 damage explosion, or about 234 kg of rating 6 foam explosives by a novice bomber. Pack it into a rigged Honda Spirit and teach the lizard that it's the 6th world now, and humanity isn't going to put up with this 4th world hissy-fit.

[KCKitsune]

Everyone. Nuclear weapons can be delivered McVeigh style no matter what kind of crazy airplanes, missile shields, or geodesic domes you think you have. As long as there are nuclear submarines, shipping containers, and fucking czar bombs, you can't really defend your cities from a hostile major power.

OK, Frank, who other than the Russians and the US have nuclear subs. As for shipping in Nukes... face facts, this is NOT the Shadowrun universe. An operation of the scale needed to SERIOUSLY hurt the US, Russia, or China would be found out. You can NOT hide that many people with those kinds of weapons.

A ballistic missile shield is a hoax, but a convincing enough one that it might convince a sufficiently stupid Chief Executive on one side or another to start a nuclear war. And that would be an extinction event. A ballistic missile shield is a danger to the planet. Even if it works. Especially if it works.

OK, I'll bite, how does a FUNCTIONAL missile intercept system cause the world to get CLOSER to nuclear war rather than further away?

[krakjen]

Shoot, I think Puff the Magic Dragon here and here would take out a GD. Not to mention the newer AC-130 shown here.

While Spooky/Spectre have impressive firepower, they are made to attack ground target, not flying heavily armored magic platform.
You'd better look into anti-aerial suport...

OK, I'll bite, how does a FUNCTIONAL missile intercept system cause the world to get CLOSER to nuclear war rather than further away?

Easy. If you have a way to effectively counter nuclear weapons, there is no longer fear of reciprocity/MAD.
The military are no longer afraid to use it just like a standard, way more powerful (read efficient) bomb.
And then you don't need much to make it happen...

(well you still need two nuclear-powered superpowers hating their guts and that didn't happen since Cold War, but hey the shadowrun world is kinda messed up and they most likely must be more country having access to mushroom toys than now. Think batshit crazy aztechnology and stuffs...)

[kzt]

Probably atmospheric attenuation is the reason "why not" -- the same reason we don' t have such things currently.

No, it's because it is extremely hard and expensive. Same reason why, after 50 years of work, we are still "a few years" from a fusion reactor, like we were in 1965. However there has been a lot more effective progress done in creating working laser weapons than in creating working fusion reactors.

[krakjen]

And nice shiny railguns start popping on battleships

[KCKitsune]

While Spooky/Spectre have impressive firepower, they are made to attack ground target, not flying heavily armored magic platform.
You'd better look into anti-aerial suport...

actually, the only gun on a AC-130 that might hurt a GD is the 105 mm. The 25 mm gats would sting (I think they would translate as the GE Vanquisher Heavy Autocannon in SR), but would not be a threat.

Easy. If you have a way to effectively counter nuclear weapons, there is no longer fear of reciprocity/MAD.
The military are no longer afraid to use it just like a standard, way more powerful (read efficient) bomb.
And then you don't need much to make it happen...

Except you still have to deal with the fallout (radiation and political/social) from using those types of weapons. I think that a nuke would still only be last resort weapon (they are expensive you know).

[FrankTrollman]

Concealment works against eyes, too. not to mention invisibility spells. as for astral perception, there's some debate on what measures the dragon could take against that, and how well such measures would work.

Dude, the Astral Perception threshold to spot this fucker is negative six. He is literally off the charts on the visibility spectrum. Even a critical glitch wouldn't stop you from knowing exactly where he is.

The Great Dragon cannot hide from an astrally perceiving magician sitting in the window seat of a Banshee. Not "it would be difficult for him to obscure himself" - it simply cannot be done. There is no conceivable dice pool penalty or distraction which could possibly stop an astral observer from knowing exactly where he is.

-Frank

[Oracle]

I think that a nuke would still only be last resort weapon (they are expensive you know).

So is war in general. And so what?

[KCKitsune]

So is war in general. And so what?

If a 5,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) bomb will work just as well as a 5,000,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) bomb... which one would you use?

[cryptoknight]

Ho indeed, I forgot about the scaled-down crowbar.
But then again, a smaller projectile need to be even more precise, it still takes a few minutes from deorbiting to impact and your target is a Great Dragon which, as big as it seems to a human scale, is still a damn small flying target from orbital position, with invisibilitu and concealment, and would have to stay completely still to be efficiently hit.
Now, how are we gonna immobilize a Great Dragon ?

No need. The deorbiting Crowbars are not meteors, they have guidance fins. Either shoot the bullets with RFID tags in them and have them home in that way or use a laser/ultrasonic/screwywatsis designator of your choice and have them home in on that.

[krakjen]

No need. The deorbiting Crowbars are not meteors, they have guidance fins. Either shoot the bullets with RFID tags in them and have them home in that way or use a laser/ultrasonic/screwywatsis designator of your choice and have them home in on that.

And you think something moving at orbital velocity is really maneuverable? We are talking 9 km/s here.
The fins are designed for stabilizing purpose and maybe some minor flight corrections, not aiming a moving target.
Not even considering the fact that the atmosphere reentry makes the sensors blind...

[Odsh]

concealment does not work on the astral

Are you sure about that?

[cryptoknight]

And you think something moving at orbital velocity is really maneuverable? We are talking 9 km/s here.
The fins are designed for stabilizing purpose and maybe some minor flight corrections, not aiming a moving target.
Not even considering the fact that the atmosphere reentry makes the sensors blind...

The crowbar sized Thor weapons platform was designed as an Anti-armor weapon. Main Battle Tanks today can exceed 60 mph. They are definately able to do some mid flight correction. FWIW, if the dragon is flying around I doubt he's flying at 9km/s either.

[Fuchs]

Are you sure about that?

Concealment (p. 287 SR4) is a physical (P) power. p. 286, sr4: "Physical powers cannot be used in astral space, or affect astral forms".

[Slymoon]

The crowbar sized Thor weapons platform was designed as an Anti-armor weapon. Main Battle Tanks today can exceed 60 mph. They are definately able to do some mid flight correction. FWIW, if the dragon is flying around I doubt he's flying at 9km/s either.

I somehow doubt the Thor weapon platform is designed to target moving armor, though Abrams can and do fire on the move. In likelyhood if firing at a moving armor group will require calculation as to firing where they will be with small corrections in flight not where they are with large corrects to try and follow their movements.

And a swooping twirling dragon would likely not be a predictable target to track.

[KCKitsune]

Thors would not be used because if they miss they would cause more disruption than the dragon could create. Those mobile railguns on Thunderbirds are what you need. Since we don't know about any orbital energy cannons (and don't have stats for them), we have to go with the next best thing.

[mfb]

Dude, the Astral Perception threshold to spot this fucker is negative six. He is literally off the charts on the visibility spectrum. Even a critical glitch wouldn't stop you from knowing exactly where he is.

The Great Dragon cannot hide from an astrally perceiving magician sitting in the window seat of a Banshee. Not "it would be difficult for him to obscure himself" - it simply cannot be done. There is no conceivable dice pool penalty or distraction which could possibly stop an astral observer from knowing exactly where he is.

due to his size? i'm not familiar with astral perception threshold modifiers.

even without mana static, i still think that the dragon could use proper terrain (urban, jungle, extremely mountainous, maybe even open ocean, especially in the tropics) to break up the spotters' ability to keep track of his location. he doesn't have to get out of sight for more than a few seconds at a time--as long as he also only remains in sight for similarly short periods--in order to keep them from providing usable targeting data.

i'm also trying really hard not to pitch a hissy fit about SR's handling of extremely long-range shots. ten seconds... -3 dice... anger rising...

[cryptoknight]

I somehow doubt the Thor weapon platform is designed to target moving armor, though Abrams can and do fire on the move. In likelyhood if firing at a moving armor group will require calculation as to firing where they will be with small corrections in flight not where they are with large corrects to try and follow their movements.

And a swooping twirling dragon would likely not be a predictable target to track.

Why not? Thor has seakers in the crowbars. Think of them as equivalent to the laser guided concrete bombs (http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/1999/10/991007-iraq.htm) ... no they won't turn corners... but I did mention deorbiting about 1000 of them... yah raining steel crowbars is going to suck, but so is letting the dragon rampage around.