Mental Exercise: Anti-Dragon Task Force, Government/Megacorp Forces taking on Dragons Options

[Fuchs]

But we do not have stats for such lasers. So, it'd come down to the old - and useless for discussion - "I think lasers would work" "No they won't. Dragon's special spells would work though" "No they would not" exchanges.

[Particle_Beam]

Isn't the point of this thread to determine a task force to defeat or at least drive off a rampaging Great Dragon from destroying a city or a headquarter anyway?
So no superweapons who will leave uber-collateral damage...

[KCKitsune]

But we do not have stats for such lasers. So, it'd come down to the old - and useless for discussion - "I think lasers would work" "No they won't. Dragon's special spells would work though" "No they would not" exchanges.

But we don't have the stats for a battle tank's gun either... unless you have a 4th edition book that says a tank gun does ?P damage. If that is so then point it out to me. If not then this whole topic is a non-starter because an anti-dragon taskforce would be ALL heavy weapons.

Isn't the point of this thread to determine a task force to defeat or at least drive off a rampaging Great Dragon from destroying a city or a headquarter anyway?
So no superweapons who will leave uber-collateral damage...

Any weapons used to take down a dragon WILL cause collateral damage if they miss. A laser cannon has the advantage of being very hard to dodge.

Now if you are just saying what's in the available books then your best bet would be Ares Heavy MP Lasers. With a strength 1 below a Panther XXL, better AP (when used on a dragon), same range, and faster firing. The AP of the laser as compared to a missile makes it that much nicer than a missile launcher.

[Fuchs]

Arsenal has heavy vehicle weapons.

[KCKitsune]

Arsenal has heavy vehicle weapons.

I stand corrected. I apologize.

OK looking at Arsenal... the best weapon is the S-K Taurus Light Gauss Cannon. It halves the armor, then applies an addition AP, and then hits you with something that's 1.4 times stronger than a Panther XXL.

[Fuchs]

Yes. Frank mentioned them before. And at 200K a pop they seem to be something every MBT, and probably most IFVs or light tanks can and do mount.

[mfb]

The thing is that it's not a good way to hinder Astral Spotters.

i was talking about dual spotters, because i don't think astral spotters would work. if astral spotters do work, then i agree--mana static is a terrible tactic to use against them. as a quick way to hinder dual spotters--not necessarily shut them down, not completely neutralize them for the entire rest of the battle, but slap them with enough modifiers that they're unable to significantly contribute for the next round or two--it works okay in conjunction with Concealment.

This betrays your basic lack of understanding of how Mana Static works. You Can't neutralize the enemy spellcasters.

i'm aware of the limited range of mana static. i was responding to your statement that "Hurting Magic across the board does not make his position any better". if he can hit a chunk of his magical opposition with a mana static spell, it's defintely worth doing even if it means ending up in the effect himself. though at the rate he can move, even without spirit assistance, he probably doesn't actually need to stay in it longer than it takes to duck out of sight behind an obstruction.

And while you can hide in it from spells and spirit powers; you can't hide in it from people using mundane weaponry that benefits from spells and spirit powers.

i don't see how that's true. my assumption is that the dragon is going to have Concealment and Invisibility up at a high enough rating that they still work pretty well even if their force is reduced by ~5-6. that means that if the dragon is inside the area of a mana static spell, he is hard to see on both the physical and the astral, meaning that it will be difficult to lase him (or whatever spotting technique is being used) long enough to matter.

though the SR4 rules really favor the task force, here. i mean, a whopping -3 dice pool for a shot that takes 5-10 seconds to travel from barrel to target? really.

[Fuchs]

But then, SR4 also lets you dodge lasers.

Technically, with the firepower of a tank platoon, a Dragon hiding inside a mana static area is as good as spotted anyway.

[Feshy]

You know guys. It is canon that orbital weapons exist. I for one would think that if anyone had space based laser weapons, it would be Ares. I mean, it is confirmed that they have "Thor Shots" in orbit (can't be used for this example because of WMD limitation), why not have nice 50 MW laser cannons in space (this is tech that existed in the 90's... hydrogen-floride lasers FTW (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) ). Dragon comes flying in... ZAP ZAP ZAPZAPZAPZAPZAPZAPZAPZAP... one dragon BBQ coming up! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Probably atmospheric attenuation is the reason "why not" -- the same reason we don' t have such things currently. (If you said "treaty" you missed the whole ballistic missile shield pork project that was explicitly against treaty.)

[cryptoknight]

About Thor shooting a dragon:
That wouldn't work. Targeting and firing a kinetic weapons takes time. At least a few minutes...
And while it's not a issue when shooting down a building, it's simply a no-go for destroying a moving angry rampaging Great Dragon.
No to mention that in the topic Task Force hypothesis, you would most likely be trying to defend your city/country.
Thor-shooting it to smithereens would be kinda counter-productive I think.

Thor would work quite nicely... there are guidance fins on the crowbars... yes the de-orbit will take a bit of time, but you let the dragon do whatever the dragon wants and don't go after it until the thors are nearby... Or hell... put RFID tags on bullets so they can home in on those.

[mfb]

But then, SR4 also lets you dodge lasers.

at any range where you have a clear enough view of the shooter for dodging to matter, i don't think that lasers would be particularly harder to dodge than bullets.

Technically, with the firepower of a tank platoon, a Dragon hiding inside a mana static area is as good as spotted anyway.

sitting stationary inside the area of a single mana static effect, sure. but that's not what i'm describing.

[cryptoknight]

You know guys. It is canon that orbital weapons exist. I for one would think that if anyone had space based laser weapons, it would be Ares. I mean, it is confirmed that they have "Thor Shots" in orbit (can't be used for this example because of WMD limitation), why not have nice 50 MW laser cannons in space (this is tech that existed in the 90's... hydrogen-floride lasers FTW (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) ). Dragon comes flying in... ZAP ZAP ZAPZAPZAPZAPZAPZAPZAPZAP... one dragon BBQ coming up! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thor is not a WMD unless you decide to use it as such... one of the planned uses for it was in an anti-armor role.

[mfb]

a thor shot, uh, certainly would be effective against armor. much in the way a wrecking ball is an effective way to open doors.

[krakjen]

Thor would work quite nicely... there are guidance fins on the crowbars... yes the de-orbit will take a bit of time, but you let the dragon do whatever the dragon wants and don't go after it until the thors are nearby... Or hell... put RFID tags on bullets so they can home in on those.

And then the city/facility you wanted to protect from said dragon will be a nice smoking crater :>

[Riley37]

Alternative dragon tactic: feint at the capital/target, get defenders to launch orbital bombardment, then invest all resources in the getaway. Result: target destroyed with minimal risk to dragon. Alternate result: city destroyed with dragon in it - both sides lose. "The only way to win is not to play."

Some versions of the Thor concept *are* scaled for targets such as individual tanks. SR emphasizes the larger ones.

It looks like the adage "if you can see it, you can kill it" is coming into play. Gaussguns as listed have the DV and AP to wound a GD. However, they'd need to be mounted on aircraft, or on high ground, to get good field of fire against a fast target that's using Invisibility and Concealment. Gaussguns on tanks may have problems getting line of fire.

Could any spirit within canon rules serve as a decoy, appearing like the GD on the astral?

How long does the GD have to spend at what range from its target, to accomplish its mission? Can it circle the target at its maximum effective range? Could it hit its target and disengage, in less time than it takes to scramble and deploy a conventional team of combat aircraft with weapons that will hurt a GD? Can its spirits do all the damage necessary, if they're not stopped?

[KCKitsune]

Probably atmospheric attenuation is the reason "why not" -- the same reason we don' t have such things currently.

Nope! The reason we don't have a functional SDI sat network is that we don't have the targeting computer to hit a ICBM. Once the targeting problem is fixed we got the guns to put up a AMS. I think that this problem would be fixed (and then some in SR)

(If you said "treaty" you missed the whole ballistic missile shield pork project that was explicitly against treaty.)

The US withdrew from the ABM treaty. That is a good thing as we are getting the tech to actually defend ourselves from a nuke missile. Question: who does an ABM treaty protect anyways? I don't care that China is pissed off about the US trying to protect itself from psychos in the Middle East. They will one day get nuclear weapons (because the US is playing "Patty Cake" with them) and they will use them.

It looks like the adage "if you can see it, you can kill it" is coming into play. Gaussguns as listed have the DV and AP to wound a GD. However, they'd need to be mounted on aircraft, or on high ground, to get good field of fire against a fast target that's using Invisibility and Concealment. Gaussguns on tanks may have problems getting line of fire.

Aircraft... most certainly ANY effective defense against a dragon would be have to come from aircraft (LAV or full out fighter/bombers) They are the only units that can keep up with a dragon.

[cryptoknight]

And then the city/facility you wanted to protect from said dragon will be a nice smoking crater :>

Not with 3 foot titanium crowbars... We're not talking telephone poles from orbit.. that's overkill for a dragon. We're talking about 3 foot long about 1 inch diameter javalins... Even if you deorbit 1000 of them... you're not going to do half as much damage as the dragon rampaging will.

[FrankTrollman]

Question: who does an ABM treaty protect anyways?

Everyone. Nuclear weapons can be delivered McVeigh style no matter what kind of crazy airplanes, missile shields, or geodesic domes you think you have. As long as there are nuclear submarines, shipping containers, and fucking czar bombs, you can't really defend your cities from a hostile major power. A ballistic missile shield is a hoax, but a convincing enough one that it might convince a sufficiently stupid Chief Executive on one side or another to start a nuclear war. And that would be an extinction event. A ballistic missile shield is a danger to the planet. Even if it works. Especially if it works.

---

In any case, mfb: what possible situation can you envision in which a Great Dragon could benefit from a Mana Static and wouldn't be better off dumping an attack spell on the same area? Remember that you explicitly don't even have to make an Assensing test to spot the Great Dragon because it is an "obvious astral form." You wouldn't be able to get deep Assensing information, but that really honestly doesn't matter when you're talking about "Great Dragon" vs. "Not."

If you insist on using dual observers you'd just put astrally perceiving magicians into the LAVs and have them looking out the window. They could have trode nets on and triangulate an exact location for the guns to target in on.

-Frank

[krakjen]

Ho indeed, I forgot about the scaled-down crowbar.
But then again, a smaller projectile need to be even more precise, it still takes a few minutes from deorbiting to impact and your target is a Great Dragon which, as big as it seems to a human scale, is still a damn small flying target from orbital position, with invisibilitu and concealment, and would have to stay completely still to be efficiently hit.
Now, how are we gonna immobilize a Great Dragon ?

[mfb]

In any case, mfb: what possible situation can you envision in which a Great Dragon could benefit from a Mana Static and wouldn't be better off dumping an attack spell on the same area? Remember that you explicitly don't even have to make an Assensing test to spot the Great Dragon because it is an "obvious astral form." You wouldn't be able to get deep Assensing information, but that really honestly doesn't matter when you're talking about "Great Dragon" vs. "Not."

If you insist on using dual observers you'd just put astrally perceiving magicians into the LAVs and have them looking out the window. They could have trode nets on and triangulate an exact location for the guns to target in on.

well, the dragon himself would be casting combat spells, yeah. i'm mainly envisioning his spirit retinue handling the mana static castings. one of his spirits spots a spotter and pops out a quick mana static spell centered ont he spotter's location. mana static has several advantages over combat spells: first and foremost, as far as i know, it can't be resisted, only avoided. second, it's an ongoing effect, so LOS is less of a concern; if a spotter is hiding out of LOS below a window, you can cast mana static into his room and it will affect him any time he pops up to try and peek at you. physical AOE combat spells can actually hit him even if you can't see him, but they have higher drain and can be resisted. combat spells and the like have their place as well, but using mana static as an astral flashbang can be handy.

as for making assensing tests, that's one of the points i keep making--no, you don't need to make an assensing test if the dragon is visible to you in the astral. but if the dragon doesn't remain visible to you for more than a second at a time--due to mana static and the way the dragon keeps flying out of sight behind buildings and coming back from a different angle--you're going to have a hard time providing solid targeting data.

it's getting to the point where it's hard to continue making reasonable conjecture without a more solid scenario. for instance, i'm really envisioning an urban battleground, mainly because that's where GW did his thang.

[Fortune]

I'm finding it hard to envision any of this being choreographed in the face of a surprise attack by an opponent that very few, if any, of the personnel on the army's side has ever fought against.

[Adarael]

Under what circumstances is this supposed to be a surprise attack? I don't think the OP had anything about surprise attacks. It specifically stated that this would be an open, pitched battle.

And to be fair? I don't think GDs have ever fought against an interdiction wing of LAVs before, either, or had to contend with cruise missiles. I can accept that in 10,000 years of experience, a Dragon's going to have seen a lot of stuff. But I don't think Earthdawn had anything that quite mimicked a coordinated air & ground attack that used modern military hardware.

[FrankTrollman]

Mana Static can't be hidden in. It's a completely invalid tactic. If you're in the Mana Static they can still see you because it doesn't block line of sight.

-Frank

[Fortune]

Under what circumstances is this supposed to be a surprise attack? I don't think the OP had anything about surprise attacks. It specifically stated that this would be an open, pitched battle.

Under what other circumstances does a Dragon ever attack a City? Do you figure he would send a message ahead saying 'Here I come!'? Even given an already-existing task force built solely for this purpose, I maintain that there is still surprise to think of.

And to be fair? I don't think GDs have ever fought against an interdiction wing of LAVs before, either, or had to contend with cruise missiles. I can accept that in 10,000 years of experience, a Dragon's going to have seen a lot of stuff. But I don't think Earthdawn had anything that quite mimicked a coordinated air & ground attack that used modern military hardware.

While this is true, mankind loves to brag, and there are plenty of venues for information and data on this type of thing. The databases and videos of a Great Dragon in full attack mode are few and far between.

[Adarael]

Under what other circumstances does a Dragon ever attack a City? Do you figure he would send a message ahead saying 'Here I come!'? Even given an already-existing task force built solely for this purpose, I maintain that there is still surprise to think of.

Under what circumstances would a media-hungry populace not notice the giant famous flying lizard that is a media icon heading towards a city and spread the word accordingly? All great dragons are media icons to some degree. The matrix is faster than dragon flight. Whil I agree that a GD wouldn't announce his attack plans, it's just plain not in the scope of the OP to deal with that. Maybe government hackers found out his plans. Maybe another GD ratted him out. Maybe some intrepid shadowrunners spread the word. Who knows? This is a thought experiement in what can kill a GD, not in what circumstances would occur before such a battle occurred.

Or to put it another way... How do you know they haven't surprised the dragon?

While this is true, mankind loves to brag, and there are plenty of venues for information and data on this type of thing. The databases and videos of a Great Dragon in full attack mode are few and far between.

This argument holds no water whatsoever. There's a big freaking difference between "I have seen a cruise missile on the TV wasting a tank" and knowing how to fight against them. That's like saying I have an advantage in a street fight over the other guy because I watch hong kong martial arts movies. Or I know how to effectively deal with a gunfight because I know how many fps a .223 round goes and what it's MOA is with an M-16 at 100 yards.