Archetypes, Replacements for the SR4A Sample Characters Options

[Shinobi Killfist]

They provide a first aid skill of 6 and give a +6 bonus to it for 1/5 of the price of rating 6 empathy software (which needs a commlink that can run it....)

5 characters took them. Throw out the guys with high magic ratings that didn't take the essence hit, and while it's not "have to take", you can see it from there. I find it interesting that there are more cyberarms than orcs, given orcs unbalanced BP cost.

I kind of think the first aid rules in 4e were designed around the idea that all the players would take a rating 6 medkit. i mean all it really goes is get you past the threshold in most cases. You still need you logic+skill to heal anyone to a decent degree.

[Ascalaphus]

They provide a first aid skill of 6 and give a +6 bonus to it for 1/5 of the price of rating 6 empathy software (which needs a commlink that can run it....)

The medkit rules are kinda broken, but that has nothing to do with the Rating, but with the weird skill-substituting rule. (And the hits cap.)

I don't think there's anything wrong with a PC having a medkit. If he's going to have a medkit, why not take the best one, given the price?

5 characters took them. Throw out the guys with high magic ratings that didn't take the essence hit, and while it's not "have to take", you can see it from there. I find it interesting that there are more cyberarms than orcs, given orcs unbalanced BP cost.

If it's "have to take", then you should take it, or change the rule system. No need to nerf your character on purpose just to be purer-than-thou.

If it's not "have to take", but it just felt like a good choice for the character, what's wrong with it?

More variety might be possible. Muscle Toner 4 is a good alternative.



Personally, the real variety-killer is IMHO the Increase Reflexes spell.

[Glyph]

Personally, the real variety-killer is IMHO the Increase Reflexes spell.

Kind of hard to avoid that, though. Several different types of initiative enhancers make sense for 'ware, but there's no reason to have several spells that do more or less the same thing. Although for combat in general, magic does offer more variety, since there is the increase Reaction spell (only practical with a high-rating sustaining focus, unless you have a low Reaction to begin with), and then the choice of either combat sense or deflection.

Increase reflexes is definitely a must-have for pure mages, but likewise, smartlinks are a must-have for nearly any character that uses firearms (the exception being dual-wielding builds).

[Ascalaphus]

Kind of hard to avoid that, though. Several different types of initiative enhancers make sense for 'ware, but there's no reason to have several spells that do more or less the same thing. Although for combat in general, magic does offer more variety, since there is the increase Reaction spell (only practical with a high-rating sustaining focus, unless you have a low Reaction to begin with), and then the choice of either combat sense or deflection.

Increase reflexes is definitely a must-have for pure mages, but likewise, smartlinks are a must-have for nearly any character that uses firearms (the exception being dual-wielding builds).

I know, it's just annoying. No helping it I guess (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Cain]

The 4.5 samurai is perfectly fine.

As for the power disparity the problem isn't that it is there, but that it isn't labeled. Something like grouping them into street/low level campaign, experienced runner etc. would show that the system easily handles a wide range of play styles even with starting at the same BP. If a group of players would be grabbing the archetypes to use it would be suggested each player come form the same power level. As is you bump into the problem where new people wont notice that X archetype is weaker compared to Y archetype and they wont work out to well on the same team, both for the players and the GM.

Rather you consider it to be a bug or a feature, the problem is still there.

Heck, I've got a troll tank in my game who maxes out at 25+ armor, all legally. He gets away with it by not being allowed to wear it in anything but a straight-up assault situation; and even then, they tend to go after him first, offsetting his advantage in toughness by being shot at more. But the problem is, weapons that hurt him would wipe out anyone with a lesser armor value. Everyone else is learning the importance of stealth, cover, and a high Reaction/dodge.

The whole point of BP is that it's supposed to give you the same power level. However, Wakshanni on RPG.net showed that you can have very effective 320 point characters, and I can easily demonstrate how you can have a useless 500-point character. What's more, the SR4.5 BBB assumes you're using BP's as a guide to power levels: you build opposition based on a BP budget, which is insanely complex and tiresome, as well as ineffective. Since players advance with karma, and not BP, if you build opposition you need to work with those totals instead.

As far as the 4.5 samurai goes: I did design better, and I proved it. The 4.5 samurai is the same as the 4.0 samurai, and I outdid that without trying too hard. I'm not allowed to discuss the build anymore; but I'm sure that many of us could outdo the BBB archetypes in every needed area, without sacrificing much of anything.

[UmaroVI]

With regards to cyberarms versus alternatives:

There are indeed several effective ways to make a weapon-focused character involving different tradeoffs.

The single-cyberarm method (the route taken by the Ronin, Negotiator, Mercenary Rigger, and Generalist) is cheap, and helps your defenses out. The drawbacks to it are that it leaves your non-shooting-people agility skills (such as Infiltration) lower, and it means that you are dependant on ability replacement (thus limiting you to 20 dice forever). It also limits you to using one-handed weapons or being less effective.

The full-body replacement method (taken by the Bad Enough Trog) makes you extremely tough and gives you full use of skills and two-handed weapons, but it still limits you to 20 dice. It also eats almost all of your resources (Essence and starting money).

The Muscle Toner route (taken by the Ghost and Combat Hacker, and which the Spook really, really wants to take as soon as he saves up 32000Y) is more expensive, but it has the advantages that you can eventually (or immediately, if you are more focused like the Ghost) break 20 dice. It makes you better at Agility skills, and it lets you use two-handed weapons.

The Mind over Matter (Logic->Agility) route (taken by the Transhuman Mystic) is a somewhat oddball route that makes you good at Logic and Agility skills, lets you use two-handed weapons, but is very expensive and character-defining and won't let you break 20 dice on Agility skills.

There's also the Increase Agility route, but it requires either a specific and not-universally accepted interpretation of Heightened Concentration, or requires you wait until you can afford a sustaining focus, which is why none of the Archetypes use this method.

Part of why the single-cyberarm method is used by more archetypes is because it's the least expensive option, even if it's also the least good - there's more different things you can do with your remaining points, so it is less character-defining and there's a wider variety of substantially different characters. Muscle Toner is the 2nd most common option, whereas Mind over Matter and full-body cyber replacement are both very character defining and eat up a large amount of resources, so leave less room for differentiation.

[UmaroVI]

I do agree that the way Increase Reflexes is so good that every mage should have it is unfortunate, but as has been pointed out, there's really no getting around it.

[CeeJay]

I just had a look at the Technoshaman.

When I first read about the Rigger Cocoon modification on the Doberman drone, I thought "What the hell is that about?"

I actually had to look up the entry in Arsenal to realize, that it's indeed completey RAW to install a rigger cocoon in medium drones!
Thanks Umaro, for pointing that one out to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif) You've made my day!

P.S. You could take this one logical step further and equip a LEBD-1 drone with a cocoon to create your personal aircraft. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

-CJ

[Ascalaphus]

I just had a look at the Technoshaman.

When I first read about the Rigger Cocoon modification on the Doberman drone, I thought "What the hell is that about?"

I actually had to look up the entry in Arsenal to realize, that it's indeed completey RAW to install a rigger cocoon in medium drones!
Thanks Umaro, for pointing that one out to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif) You've made my day!

P.S. You could take this one logical step further and equip a LEBD-1 drone with a cocoon to create your personal aircraft. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

-CJ

I'm not entirely sure that's how it works. Normally, drones are not built with space for passengers in them; a Rigger Cocoon doesn't create a seat, it just alters a seat.

[Cain]

I'm not entirely sure that's how it works. Normally, drones are not built with space for passengers in them; a Rigger Cocoon doesn't create a seat, it just alters a seat.

Oh, it's technically legal, just a bit on the cheap side. The Arsenal rules don't do much differentiating between a drone and a vehicle, largely because there isn't much of one. Previous editions tried to do this, and caused even bigger cheese as a result.

[Ascalaphus]

It would be so convenient if we had 1) number of seats per existing vehicle, and 2) a mod to add a seat to a vehicle/drone.

Magically creating a seat in a drone by adding a rigger cocoon just feels like cheating.

[CeeJay]

Magically creating a seat in a drone by adding a rigger cocoon just feels like cheating.

Indeed it does. But we are talking missions characters here. This would never fly at my home table...

-CJ

[Cain]

It would be so convenient if we had 1) number of seats per existing vehicle, and 2) a mod to add a seat to a vehicle/drone.

Magically creating a seat in a drone by adding a rigger cocoon just feels like cheating.

Oh, it gets better.

In SR2, they had rules for essentially building vehicles from scratch. You picked a chassis, engine, etc, and built everything. You also had cost multipliers and dividers that factored into your total price. One of those was drone conversion: 0.75 cost multiplier.

The problem was, exactly what converting a vehicle into a drone wasn't clearly laid out, so you could modify anything into a drone. It was supposed to be just for vehicles with no passenger capacity, but it didn't actually spell it out, and you could add seats anyway. So, just about every vehicle was made with the drone cost reduction, simply because it was a freebie. In comparison, this trick seem relatively harmless.

[Nath]

I don't get why Rating 6 medkits would be cheese. (Actually, I don't see why they had to give medkits ratings, instead of just fixing all of them at R6. There's no reason to go lower, so why add fake complexity to CharGen?)

Holdover from the 3rd edition. Originally, medkits had no rating, all had a Biotech skill at 3. If I remember correctly, it's only in 3rd edition book Man & Machine that medkit rating was introduced. And, as gear listed weight back then, medkits weight was their rating in kilogram. So it sorta made sense to have a light rating 1 medkit in your jacket, clipped on your belt or whatever, and the much heavier rating 6 medkit in your car.

[Ascalaphus]

Holdover from the 3rd edition. Originally, medkits had no rating, all had a Biotech skill at 3. If I remember correctly, it's only in 3rd edition book Man & Machine that medkit rating was introduced. And, as gear listed weight back then, medkits weight was their rating in kilogram. So it sorta made sense to have a light rating 1 medkit in your jacket, clipped on your belt or whatever, and the much heavier rating 6 medkit in your car.

Ah, that explains it then.

[Bodak]

They are the size of a decent briefcase and weigh about 30 lbs.

In D&D, the added layer of complexity introduced by using unfamiliar archaic measurement units is compensated for by the effect it has: of transporting the players' imagination back to ye olde ancyent tymes. But exhuming these units for present-day or near-future games doesn't really bring with it the same benefit.

I do like the concept though. It integrates well with the the Valkyrie module which costs 2 slots: the size of two rigger cocoons, each of which can contain a human. This Valkyrie module counts as Shop level equipment (Ar146) which acts as rating 8 medkit (Au124) so fits in with your scaling. (Why the Valkyrie module is only described as coming with a rating 4 medkit is beyond me.)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It is certainly better than some of the other sample characters.

True. But then again, not all of them are intended to be front line combatants either. I like most of them.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Kind of hard to avoid that, though. Several different types of initiative enhancers make sense for 'ware, but there's no reason to have several spells that do more or less the same thing. Although for combat in general, magic does offer more variety, since there is the increase Reaction spell (only practical with a high-rating sustaining focus, unless you have a low Reaction to begin with), and then the choice of either combat sense or deflection.

Increase reflexes is definitely a must-have for pure mages, but likewise, smartlinks are a must-have for nearly any character that uses firearms (the exception being dual-wielding builds).

And even still, not everyone is going to cast the spell for the most effective possible result. I have a Mage with Magic 3, He casts the spell at Force 3. So, he can get to 3 IP. He could cast it at Force 4. But that risks Physical Drain, and though He has the dice pool to reduce it to negligible/nill effect, he does not do so. Why? Because it is PHYSICAL Damage. Might as well just put a gun to the character's head and pull the trigger. Same Effect. May be a fluff thing, but there you go.

[UmaroVI]

The Street Samurai is probably the best of the SR4A sample characters. You'll note that she uses cyberarms for agility replacement, in fact (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) . I don't like the Incompetence (Hacking) on a character who has no computer-related skill, ware, or gear at all (and I think whoever designed her thought that cyberlimb customization had to put your cyberlimb's stats equal to yours), but she doesn't have the serious functionality problems that characters like the Weapon Specialist do.

[squee_nabob]

the sample TM is bad for a TM but still better than the hacker at hacking

[Cain]

True. But then again, not all of them are intended to be front line combatants either. I like most of them.

The SR4.5 street samurai is supposed to be a front-line combatant, though. Admittedly it's not as bad as the Weapons Specialist or the Smuggler, but the BBB samurai is a "combat generalist": some speed, some firepower, some tanking. Nothing truly amazing in any of those areas. You can easily afford to super-specialize in one of those three areas, making him into a better front-line combatant, without sacrificing anything.

If I were doing it, I'd go for speed first, relying on initiative to go first, before the other guys could hit me. Firepower would be second, and even then, I bet I could get a bigger primary combat dice pool. Tanking (Body + Armor) would be tertiary, I'd rely on cover and Reaction to not get hit in the first place, and have enough soak dice to handle what I needed. Still probably be equivalent.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The SR4.5 street samurai is supposed to be a front-line combatant, though. Admittedly it's not as bad as the Weapons Specialist or the Smuggler, but the BBB samurai is a "combat generalist": some speed, some firepower, some tanking. Nothing truly amazing in any of those areas. You can easily afford to super-specialize in one of those three areas, making him into a better front-line combatant, without sacrificing anything.

If I were doing it, I'd go for speed first, relying on initiative to go first, before the other guys could hit me. Firepower would be second, and even then, I bet I could get a bigger primary combat dice pool. Tanking (Body + Armor) would be tertiary, I'd rely on cover and Reaction to not get hit in the first place, and have enough soak dice to handle what I needed. Still probably be equivalent.

But WHY should they be AMAZING? There is absolutely no Need, as compared to the antagonists in the books.

[squee_nabob]

I think the reason to amp up the power of the sample characters, is so that if someone sits down at a new group that is playing higher powered SR, you can give them a suitable character. It is easier to weaken characters than boost them, IMHO.

[Elfenlied]

Personally, I like the sample characters in this thread. They actually feel playable, compared to the ones in the book. Too bad Missions ain't available here in Germany.

[Kirk]

Oh, it's technically legal, just a bit on the cheap side. The Arsenal rules don't do much differentiating between a drone and a vehicle, largely because there isn't much of one. Previous editions tried to do this, and caused even bigger cheese as a result.

I would love to disallow this by Arsenal rules, page 102.

Medium Drones (Body 3): Medium drones range from
large dog to human or motorcycle-sized. They are unable to carry
an adult metahuman, though they could potentially carry a child
or small dwarf.

Unfortunately, there's not only the orderly (a medium drone made to act as a perambulatory autonomous stretcher), there's the good old LEBD, which happens to include this little clause:

When the assistance of a crime scene specialist
is required, he can jump into the drone to gives an on the spot
appraisal of the situation, along with evidence recovery.

Gads, I hate when rules are inconsistent.