Born to Run novel - Dumpshock Forums

Born to Run novel, I don't get it

fistandantilus4.... fistandantilus4.0 View Member Profile	Mar 15 2006, 06:19 AM Post #76
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928	Just saw Poisoned Memories on the shelf today . FIrst time I've seen it out here in Utah. Of course, I'm at work and my wife is at home reading it, so I still have no idea what it's about. I'll post my two cents when I two. Johnathan's review has me a bit worried now, but , hey , I'll check it out with an open mind. kind of like all the Batman movies after the first two. If you go in to it expecting something serious, you're oging to be dissapointed. I'll just look at it for what it is, and take in to account Johnathan's POV that Kenson is/was working with constraints. Just thank god Crimsondude isn't around to write a review. :)

fistandantilus4.... fistandantilus4.0 View Member Profile	Mar 16 2006, 09:35 AM Post #77
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928	OK, so I just finished reading it through, over all, not a bad book. Definitely an improvement over the first one. The good stuff: Lots of double dealing, back stabbing, and lieing between shadowrunners. Lots of different agendas. Had more interesting descriptions of the mechanics of magic, some cool spirit stuff, and a litte t-bird chase that I enjoyed. The bad: Like was said before, you need some hand waiving to take the end of the book. The shadowrunners are the ones to save the city from a toxic attack, after an Ares Firewatch team drops them off. riiiiight. Then the Mr Johnson goes with the team after the big bad guy, toting an SMG. sure. Then they don't call LoneStar because mr Johnson doesn't want his name connected to it, then they make a publicity thing ot of it afterwards between KE and LS. Now I could take hat if they'd planned it that way, but they didn't. And the dwarf. Bad dwarf. The rest: It wasn't a really engaging book. It didn't draw me in and force me to turn the pages. But it was interesting, it did a good job of depicting Seattle and the SR world and some places in it. It works pretty well as continuing to be an introduction to the SR world. The villian tended to monologue and say some cheesy, cliched lines like "you're supposed to be dead" and "But you're no match for me" right before he dies, that sort of thing. But at least he visual description of him was pretty neat. All in all, I think I'll go ahead an finish the series when the next book comes to my area. Not really "the explosive new saga continues..." but it's a story at least.

JonathanC View Member Profile	Mar 16 2006, 04:59 PM Post #78
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083	It suffers from an excess of exposition, just like the first book. But again...I think the purpose of the book is more to introduce the setting to brand-new players. Assuming you knew nothing about Shadowrun, after reading these books, you would know: 1. Your average SINless has probably never eaten "real" food as we know it. Everything they eat is made from soy or something similar. 2. Stuffer Shack™ is a cheap way to feed yourself. 3. Encounters with gangs are a constant when travelling through Seattle. The highways are patrolled by them, they infest the barrens, and once you piss them off, they will actually come looking for you, even if it means leaving their territory. This is actually a useful detail, as I've been in (and run) SR games where gang run-ins were almost nonexistent. 4. How sorcery works, how conjuring works, and the difference between hermetic and shamanic varieties thereof. Also, some pretty good basic examples of what it looks like to describe for your players. 5. Toxic Shamans hate everybody. 6. Sometimes things will go wrong. LoneStar will come after you, it will seem as if someone sold you out, and really...you may never figure out who it was. Even people who are scheming behind your back may still act on your behalf and look out for you. Likewise, the people who seem nicest to you may well be responsible for the bulk of your problems (Jackie Ozone being a prime example). 7. Metahumans hate it when you compare them to fantasy books. But then, some of them really do fit the stereotype. On the other hand...what the frag was that Dwarf doing on that team? He contributed almost nothing. 8. In Shadowrun, the "good guys" (players) do not always win. Failing a run is part of the game sometimes. 9. Using a fireball in close quarters is a good way to end up frying your melee combatant allies. Mages need to use common sense. 10. As a matter of course, there is no such thing as a "milk run". If it went well, you were being set up. If it looks like it's going well, you're about to get royally fragged. Nasty surprises during runs are the bread and butter of Shadowrun. Now, if you are familiar with Shadowrun, this stuff is old hat and boring, and being beaten over the head with it for two books will annoy you. But if you sit back and enjoy the book, there's a decent enough "growing up Shadowrun" story in there. 8)

BookWyrm

Mar 16 2006, 08:08 PM

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QUOTE (JonathanC)

It suffers from an excess of exposition, just like the first book. But again...I think the purpose of the book is more to introduce the setting to brand-new players. Assuming you knew nothing about Shadowrun, after reading these books, you would know:

1. Your average SINless has probably never eaten "real" food as we know it. Everything they eat is made from soy or something similar.

2. Stuffer Shack™ is a cheap way to feed yourself.

3. Encounters with gangs are a constant when travelling through Seattle. The highways are patrolled by them, they infest the barrens, and once you piss them off, they will actually come looking for you, even if it means leaving their territory. This is actually a useful detail, as I've been in (and run) SR games where gang run-ins were almost nonexistent.

4. How sorcery works, how conjuring works, and the difference between hermetic and shamanic varieties thereof. Also, some pretty good basic examples of what it looks like to describe for your players.

5. Toxic Shamans hate everybody.

6. Sometimes things will go wrong. LoneStar will come after you, it will seem as if someone sold you out, and really...you may never figure out who it was. Even people who are scheming behind your back may still act on your behalf and look out for you. Likewise, the people who seem nicest to you may well be responsible for the bulk of your problems (Jackie Ozone being a prime example).

7. Metahumans hate it when you compare them to fantasy books. But then, some of them really do fit the stereotype. On the other hand...what the frag was that Dwarf doing on that team? He contributed almost nothing.

8. In Shadowrun, the "good guys" (players) do not always win. Failing a run is part of the game sometimes.

9. Using a fireball in close quarters is a good way to end up frying your melee combatant allies. Mages need to use common sense.

10. As a matter of course, there is no such thing as a "milk run". If it went well, you were being set up. If it looks like it's going well, you're about to get royally fragged. Nasty surprises during runs are the bread and butter of Shadowrun.

Now, if you *are* familiar with Shadowrun, this stuff is old hat and boring, and being beaten over the head with it for two books will annoy you. But if you sit back and enjoy the book, there's a decent enough "growing up Shadowrun" story in there. 8)

1. This is true, even in our time. A lot of people consume pre-processed or manufactured food, and rarely eat 'organic' foods (vegetables, real milk, meat, ect.) unless mandated by a physician, or they were turned on to it at an extremly young age.

2. Yep. Stuffer Shack is the new Circle K. Besides, I think there's already another thread on that.

3. They are not so much constant, as they are prevailent. Sometimes you can sneak through a gang-controlled area without them noticing, or they'll just stop you & ask for a 'returning fee'. Also, if you breeze through in & out, that means the local law has been on one of their 'gang sweeps'.

4. SK wrote several of the Magic books for the entire line of SR, and having him describe the rituals & such actually clears things up. Far too many times, in my experience, the mage will just guesture & all the magick is performed flawessly. No. The details are there to help bring a better understanding. Besides, it help eliminate all those pesky e-mails from fans saying : "In your book (title), on page (xx), what was that ritual? why was it left so ambiguous?"
That, of course, being one of the nicer-phrased ones. You don't want to hear/read the not-so-nice ones.

5. Toxic Shamas DO hate everybody. They blame mankind for all the woes upon the world. But they hate some more than others for other reasons. To try to figure out how a Toxic Shaman's mind works is an exercise in....well, futility.

6. Yes, Lone Star (or whichever law-enforcement company has the contract) will come after you. You're a wanted criminal. You have 'freinds' who amy or may not turn you in for a price (like a lesser sentence, reduced jail time or soe quick cash). As the saying goes, keep your freinds close....

7. YES, metahumans HATE beng compared to their fantasy counterparts, but that doesn't mean they can't take advantage of it then pull a classic switch.
And the dwarf with the axe was there to provide something that you cannot do without--additional back up. Whenthe guy with the gun is being distracted by the HUGE Troll starging down at him, the Dwarf can be *very* sneaky.

8. SR is Murphy's Law in practice. If you blow the mission, but come out alive, you win. If the mission is a success, but your team dies, you lose.

9. Yes.

10. Agreed.

JonathanC View Member Profile	Mar 16 2006, 10:55 PM Post #80
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083	Glad you agree. Again, I would definitely hand these books to new players if they expressed an interest in learning more about the setting...I've had many games of various systems go south because the players didn't really comprehend the "flavor" of the game.

fistandantilus4.... fistandantilus4.0 View Member Profile	Mar 17 2006, 05:43 AM Post #81
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928	The dwarf just came across as convenient cannon fodder to me. I didn't really see a point to him being there. I don't see how he would really be useful in an urban run except as a slow moving target. Even wit ha big target just sitting there (the wolverine) chewing on someone he was pretty damn innefective. I liked the rest of the characters , although I'm still a little unsure about how to feel about Midnight. Maybe that's how it was intended. But I didn't get any strong attachment to the main character[s], although it was interesting to watch Kellan start acting how she hates having Lothan act, and feel smug because of it. I think I liked the shaman the most. I wondered of he was supposed to be an conjuring adept until he cast a manaball there near the end.

Chrome Shadow View Member Profile	Mar 17 2006, 03:58 PM Post #82
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 27-January 06 Member No.: 8,205	Well, i have all the previous SR novels, so I Have to have the new ones... I couldn't find them anywhere, so I finished paying $24.00 for all three on the internet... I hope they are good...

SL James View Member Profile	Mar 17 2006, 04:30 PM Post #83
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473	Can't... breath...

JonathanC

Mar 17 2006, 10:14 PM

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QUOTE (Chrome Shadow)

Well, i have all the previous SR novels, so I Have to have the new ones...

I couldn't find them anywhere, so I finished paying $24.00 for all three on the internet...

I hope they are good...

There's a third? I thought only the first two were out.

coyote6

Mar 17 2006, 10:42 PM

Post #85

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QUOTE (JonathanC)

There's a third? I thought only the first two were out.

The third one ("Fallen Angel", IIRC) came out a week-and-a-half ago, IIRC. I read this week.

JonathanC

Mar 18 2006, 01:06 AM

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QUOTE (coyote6)

QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 17 2006, 05:14 PM)

There's a third? I thought only the first two were out.

The third one ("Fallen Angel", IIRC) came out a week-and-a-half ago, IIRC. I read this week.

Weird. Can't find it at my local Barnes & Noble. Huh.

Snow_Fox View Member Profile	Mar 18 2006, 03:44 PM Post #87
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221	I seemed to have missed this one. or maybe I was just lucky. I was htinking of Born to Run by Mercedes Lackey and Larry Dixon. That actually would make a good SR run even htough not an SR novel it is cyberpunk.. Set in current day Savanah it tells of a conflict between a human mage and his allies, elves who enjoy road racing and a group of evil elves who are into kiddy porn and snuff films. The battle ground being a teen runaway.

fistandantilus4.... fistandantilus4.0 View Member Profile	Mar 19 2006, 06:03 AM Post #88
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928	sounds twisted

Chrome Shadow View Member Profile	Mar 20 2006, 06:31 PM Post #89
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 27-January 06 Member No.: 8,205	Yep. "Fallen Angels" is out.

JonathanC View Member Profile	Mar 20 2006, 06:42 PM Post #90
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083	Is it worth getting? I'm kind of curious about it since I already read the other two, but on the other hand...I'm not sure I want to punk down another 7 bucks.

arenn View Member Profile	Mar 21 2006, 02:35 PM Post #91
Target Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 10-January 06 Member No.: 8,149	Fallen Angels is more of the same. I'd rate it as the strongest of the three, but this isn't a quantum jump in enjoyment. It's obvious Kenson was hemmed in by the tie-in with Shadowrun Duels and the target age group of the book. I don't think we'll be able to fairly judge the new Shadowrun novel series until actual new material starts coming out.

ATimson

Mar 22 2006, 10:06 PM

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QUOTE (JonathanC)

Again, I would definitely hand these books to new players if they expressed an interest in learning more about the setting...

As you can see by my registration date off to the left, well, I'm just a little new. :) I just finished Kenson's trilogy today. While I'd gleaned bits and pieces about the setting before, this was my first in-depth exposure to the universe. And I have to say, as the trilogy went on it got a little overwhelming.

The first book in the trilogy, I didn't have any problems. Born to Run was a fairly straightforward introduction into the setting: the basics of shadowrunning, the Awakening, the Matrix... It alone might work as an introduction for new players. (Well, asides from the unresolved plotthreads that stretch over the other two books in the trilogy. Fortunately, Kenson saw fit to have each book have its own main plot that was brought to a conclusion, instead of stretching one book's plot over a trilogy like other authors might have done.)

The second and third books, though, aren't quite so newbie-friendly. This was more of a problem in Poison Agendas; Kenson never really made clear just what a toxic shaman was, or why he's have any interest in poisoning Seattle. When that's the main plot of the book, that's not a very good idea.

Fallen Angels suffered from something similar; fortunately, the plot didn't revolve around them. References to Renraku Arcology and Dunkelzahn (and really dragons in general) were made as if the reader should have known who or what they were. Given that this book was significantly longer than the other two, I'm wondering if Kenson finally said "screw it, I'm writing a normal SR book". ;)

So, at the end of the trilogy, what do I think about Shadowrun? Certainly, the setting is interesting, and has potential. But without a central storyline, or even central set of characters, I'm not quite sure what the point is. I'll definitely buy Drops of Corruption, because I like Jason Hardy's stuff, but beyond that? I guess we'll just have to see. :|

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Mar 22 2006, 11:03 PM Post #93
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	Well, there is a central plot and a central set of characters to the Shadowrun setting its just that the cast is very big and the plot simultaneously is enormous and vauge with very strong connections to a fantasy world that is currently owned by a completely different company. The metaplot really revolves around the Great Dragons, Immortal Elves, and a handful of mortals who could be classified as either prime runners or wealthy businessmen such as Ryan Mercury and Damien Knight. The problem is that most runners (and dragons for that matter) do not play at this level and probably never will so a novel like this seems far removed to the overarching longterm plot. This isn't a bad thing at all. Even the people who love the metaplot and the Immortal Elves and the Earthdawn connections need a break from it every now and then. The realy epic Shadowrun novels are filled with superpowered characters who simply do not belong in most Shadowrun campaigns. At any rate, welcome to Dumpshock. Here is you dikoted AVS ally spirit and yes you can have sex with it.

fistandantilus4.... fistandantilus4.0 View Member Profile	Mar 23 2006, 05:16 AM Post #94
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928	Some of my favorite books ever were Steven Brust's books with Vlad Taltos, where he never explained anything. It didn't help that I read them completely out of order, but it was neat figuring out what the hell he was talking about. But in hind sight, it would be very annoying if you weren't familiar with the SR world to go "Toxics ..ooooohhh" followed by "what the hell's a toxic?!"

SL James View Member Profile	Mar 23 2006, 05:16 PM Post #95
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473	Something toxic?

arenn View Member Profile	Mar 23 2006, 08:26 PM Post #96
Target Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 10-January 06 Member No.: 8,149	There are really two different things you can be looking for in a novel: relevance to Shadowrun gaming or quality as a standalone novel. I've never gamed Shadowrun (though I'd like to try it) though I do own every novel. In that light, I care principally about whether or not the book is any good, not whether it fully follows the rules or otherwise sheds light on game scenarios. It also makes me more interested in novels that advance the mythology of the series versus those that are just plain shadowrunner shadowrunning. The first run of books did a great job at first of slowly revealing the overarching plot structure of the horrors, the dragons, Immortal Elves, etc. You learned more about the world and it seemed to be leading somewhere. Alas, somewhere around the Dragonheart Saga, which seemed to represent some sort of a conclusion, this basically ended and you ended up with lower quality plots by Lisa Smedman and Stephen Kenson. This new trilogy, unlike Secrets of Power for example, takes us nowhere really in the Universe. That to me is the greatest disappointment. Now that there is a new Shadowrun in the 2070's with presumably a more well advanced core story arc, the novels to come will engage with that and be more enjoyable on a purely literary standpoint.

Dale View Member Profile	Mar 24 2006, 02:02 AM Post #97
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 20-December 05 Member No.: 8,088	Personally, I'm salivating at the imminent arrival of the new 4th edition novels set in 2070. I'm enjoying Kenson's trilogy, but it seems a little like a "blast from the past" to me rather than something new.

Adam

Mar 24 2006, 04:46 AM

Post #98

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QUOTE (Dale)

Personally, I'm salivating at the imminent arrival of the new 4th edition novels set in 2070. I'm enjoying Kenson's trilogy, but it seems a little like a "blast from the past" to me rather than something new.

QUOTE

Personally, I'm salivating at the imminent arrival of the new 4th edition novels set in 2070.

These haven't been officially announced yet -- there are still 3 more 206x novels on the way from WizKids in 2006.

ChaLk View Member Profile	Mar 27 2006, 11:14 PM Post #99
Target Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 31-August 05 From: Toronto Member No.: 7,654	Just putting in my 2 cents.... I feel that the three books are while perhaps not the strongest work from the author, they are a decent (and much needed) addition to the SR library. A lot of people have noted that they're effectively a good introduction for people who don't know the game and in that I believe they succeed admirably. The feel and some of the mechanics/background of the game are dealt with here in these three novels much better than in some of the shadowrun novels I've read (some of which have been pretty poor). Let me put it this way, I'm fairly regularly wanting to introduce new people to shadowrun, and this is a pretty good way to do it. That said, not perfect by any means. I also think that looking at these three books more as one book split into three parts is a better way to think of it. In fact I'm pretty certain that many of the issues (character depth, etc) would be solved had these books been compressed into one volume. In all, i'm pretty happy to see new Shadowrun novels coming and want to see more. (that said, no more Kellan Colt books, at least for a while okay, there's many amazing possibilities for characters so let's explore those a while shall we). :\|

ATimson

Mar 28 2006, 12:39 AM

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QUOTE (ChaLk)

I also think that looking at these three books more as one book split into three parts is a better way to think of it. In fact I'm pretty certain that many of the issues (character depth, etc) would be solved had these books been compressed into one volume.

The way the books are structured, I think that they wouldn't have worked together in one volume; there's three distinct stories there, even though some metaplot stretches out across all three.

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