How to fix Chase Combat, From the Compromise thread... Options

[The Monk]

You're right; Chase combat also doesn't give you nearly the depth of tactical options that normal combat does. I'm hoping that by abstracting ranges, I can allow vehicles to have more options by putting it all into normal combat.

It's an interesting idea, and I'd be curious of your results when you actually playtest it. Unfortunately for my group, we've used actual meters to describe how far opponents are. Personally I think that it is too abstract. The actual weapon ranges are so different. A heavy pistol, for example can shoot up to 60 meters max, an assault rifle's short range is up to 50 meters.

Like I said previously, chase combat is fine, except for the fact that it doesn't give you the feeling of driving too fast. The Picard Maneuver is a problem but it is somewhat fixed if you house rule that you can only change one step in the range. It works out too that short (medium) range actually becomes used. The few chase combat's that I have run seem to only happen in close range or long range.

[kigmatzomat]

This is similar to something posted earlier. Parallel evolution I guess.

Chase combat house rule.

The core notion is that a) the mechanic is focused on someone fleeing, b) it shouldn't involve too much math, c) it should deal better with corner cases, and d) you should be able to go tactical if you want without having to go tactical if you don't.

All normal terrain modifiers affect the drivers. The "speed modifier" only affects the pursuers to avoid weird math collisions.


Opposed Extended Test.
Defender (escapee) needs to acquire a number of net successes to escape. Simply keep track of each vehicle's total successes and compare each round. Any time the defender reaches the Escape threshold against a pursuer, that pursuer has lost track of the Chasee. (See "multiple pursuers" for complications like "follow the leader".)

Time frame: Personally, I think this works fine for regular combat turns but switching to the "chase turn" for the Exposed condition wouldn't be unreasonable outside of "close" range.



Escape conditions. These conditions are relative to each pursuer. A speed boat in a canal may be pursued by a car on a nearby road, another boat, a submarine, and an aircraft. Each of which may have different conditions that would justify escape.
Note that the escape condition may change due to weather, moving from interstate to surface roads, changing altitudes in aerial combat, submerging, etc.

Ideal escape condition
Lots escape routes with short line of sight. Could be downtown at 2pm, an old growth forest, sensor-occluding bad weather, mana storms, aircraft in (urban) canyons, etc.

Typical escape condition
Moderate lines of sight, limited escape routes. Most roads, rough seas, cloudy skies, etc.

Exposed escape condition
Very long line of sight with limited escape options. Freeways beyond sprawls, deserts, clear skies, open ocean or trains (what, like they can turn when they want?!?)


Ranges classes:
There are four ranges. Close is always 0-50meters. A pursuer must be at close range to ram or do other such stunts. Moderate is normally the maximum range that passengers can shoot at other vehicles due to trees, other vehicles, etc. Long is usually the greatest range that vehicle mounted weapons can be used on each other, and at the "escape" range you've got only fleeting glimpses of the target.

When a pursuer shows up it should be given a range and an appropriate success modifier.

A suggested "real world" range is given for each of the classes. You'll note that they match up between conditions and successes so that a change in condition doesn't change the absolute distance even if it changes the range class.


close med long escape
ideal 1 2 3 4 Threshold
0-50m -100m -200m -300m
typical 2 4 6 8 Threshold
0-50m -300m -500m -750m
exposed 3 6 9 12 Threshold
0-50m -500m -1000m 2000m+

So under typical conditions, if the chasee has 6 total successes and the pursuer has 4 total successes, the pursuer is at (6-4=2) close range.

If this is the first round of chase and the pursuer starts at moderate range (-4), the pursuer would have 0 total successes so chasee would have a net of 6 successes (6-0), pushing the pursuer back to long range.


Relative Speed modifier
For all typical and ideal conditions and close range under exposed conditions, compare the pursuer's acceleration (run) to that of the chasee. Pursuers get +1 for every 5 they exceed the chasee, -1 for every 5 they are below the chasee.
.
Under most Exposed conditions at ranges beyond close, Speed is usually more important because the vehicles can run flat out. Pursuers get +1 for every 10 their Max Speed exceeds the chasee, -1 for every 10 they are below the chasee.

Corner cases
Multiple Pursuers:
A pursuer that has lost their target vehicle can choose to follow an ally. The ally does NOT make a separate Chase test, meaning they cannot make it easier for the pursuer without losing the target. Note the pursuer should recalculate the relative speed modifier for his new "target."

Air vs ground pursuit
Determine the defender's escape threshold based on the pursuer's range of vision. Eg an escape car flees at 2pm downtown Topeka. The chasee needs 4 successes vs ground pursuit but 12 vs aircraft (few tall buildings in Topeka). If the chasee enters the heavily wooded city park the escape threshold is 8 vs ground pursuit (less traffic, fewer turnoffs) and 4 vs aircraft due to the tree canopy.

[Cain]

Okay, so here's what I've got so far. It still only works for two groups, but I think it's better:

• There are five ranges: Melee, Close, Medium, Long, and Extreme.
  
• Pistols cannot fire at Extreme range. All guns have the usual range penalties, negated by Vision Magnification.
  
• There are no range penalties for Melee range. Instead, you can only accomplish certain things in this range, such as melee combat (duh), jumping from one vehicle to another, or ramming.
  
• At the start of each turn, you make a "positioning test", using whatever skill happens to be appropriate. Usually, Pilot skills will be used for vehicles. You gain modifiers in the form of extra dice for things that increase your speed, like cyberskates.
  • The Movement power grants bonus dice equal to the spirit's force.
  • Trolls get a +2 modifier to this test, Dwarves get -1.
  • An "extreme speed" bonus may also be applied.
  • Penalties for terrain may be applied as well.
  
  
• Winning the test gives you a +2 Superior Position dice pool modifier, or allows you to move up to two range categories, or move another group one range category.
  
• You can Cut Off a vehicle or opponent who is in Close range, by making an opposed check. You can Break Away from an opponent by moving him to Extreme range and then making a successful opposed check.

That's the basic idea. This way, you can use vehicles right alongside normal humans. This also means you can use the chase rules while on foot. So, you can have someone knock over a trash can, in an attempt to give his chasers a terrain penalty.

What do you all think? I'm trying to make it so that we can have more than two groups, but I don't know how these rules would work if you added a third party to the mix.

[Ryu]

• There are five ranges: Melee, Close, Medium, Long, and Extreme.
  
• Pistols cannot fire at Extreme range. All guns have the usual range penalties, negated by Vision Magnification.

KISS - but not much differentiation between weapons. I still think you should do a mod table (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

• There are no range penalties for Melee range. Instead, you can only accomplish certain things in this range, such as melee combat (duh), jumping from one vehicle to another, or ramming.

Even-more-reckless-driving-range, I see (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

• At the start of each turn, you make a "positioning test", using whatever skill happens to be appropriate. Usually, Pilot skills will be used for vehicles. You gain modifiers in the form of extra dice for things that increase your speed, like cyberskates. [list]
• The Movement power grants bonus dice equal to the spirit's force.
• Trolls get a +2 modifier to this test, Dwarves get -1.
• An "extreme speed" bonus may also be applied.
• Penalties for terrain may be applied as well.

Appropiate skill for metahumans would be Running? Second, did you come around on the GM forbidding inappropiate chases? Some of my chars can bring a dozen running dice, mods might become inconsequential at that point.

• Winning the test gives you a +2 Superior Position dice pool modifier, or allows you to move up to two range categories, or move another group one range category.

You are certainly waiting for this comment, old chum, but while you are at it, remove the ability to move other parties. Compare the fleeing parties hits to the hits of all pursuers, permit distance changes based on the difference. Multiple fleeing parties are the ugly, that´s where moving to a "driven distance" system would shine. Abstract distances can only work if one side of the conflict is useable as a reference.

• You can Cut Off a vehicle or opponent who is in Close range, by making an opposed check. You can Break Away from an opponent by moving him to Extreme range and then making a successful opposed check.

That´s fine. Maybe cutting someone off changes everyone elses range categories? Those behind come closer, those in front move farther away, "melee" vehicles roll a crash test?

[Cain]

Appropiate skill for metahumans would be Running? Second, did you come around on the GM forbidding inappropiate chases? Some of my chars can bring a dozen running dice, mods might become inconsequential at that point.

Usually running, but other skills might apply as well. As much as I hate relying on GM fiat, it isn't so bad once you abstract things-- abstract rulings for a "realistic" game are serious bad news, but abstract rulings for an abstract system is OK. I'd like a rule, though, that would define inappropriate chases. Probably a speed/altitude differential, or something.

You are certainly waiting for this comment, old chum, but while you are at it, remove the ability to move other parties. Compare the fleeing parties hits to the hits of all pursuers, permit distance changes based on the difference. Multiple fleeing parties are the ugly, that´s where moving to a "driven distance" system would shine. Abstract distances can only work if one side of the conflict is useable as a reference.

You make a good point. I think I'll go with that.

That´s fine. Maybe cutting someone off changes everyone elses range categories? Those behind come closer, those in front move farther away, "melee" vehicles roll a crash test?

I was thinking a penalty to the opposed test. That way, everyone has a good chance of closing in, but not a certainty.