So what happened in the end?, CGL, state of Dumpshock, etc. Options

[nezumi]

Regarding dumpshock, I sort of have to agree with Snow Fox.

Of course, CGL needs to make new editions to keep the line profitable, and probably the worst thing for Shadowrun and dumpshock would be to dwell on one edition forever more.

But it seems like with every edition change, we lose three people for every two new people we gain. I don't know why that is. Maybe the official forums are getting those new folk? Maybe the forum is too curmudgeonly? Maybe SR just isn't making the sales? Maybe it's just me, as someone who doesn't read the SR4 threads? I don't know, and I'd love to be set right. But I just get the sense that with every edition, we're seeing a slew of people who say 'whelp, I'm out! I'm sticking with SRX forever more, so there's nothing further to discuss.'

Maybe if the new editions were more backwards-compatible, it would reduce the drop-out rate.

[kzt]

Running around with a sword or axe when firearms are cheap and abundant is just asking for it, though. This isn't an anime or Joss Whedon game, where swordguy is equally viable to assault rifle guy. This is a game where guns are supposed to be the optimal choice in terms of combat for mundanes, and the system does a good job of modelling it by making melee inherently worse, with the option of playing a melee specialist if you invest a lot in it. And even then, that melee specialist should have some ranged attack options.

Also note that body armor in SR is supposed to outclass most of what we have today in terms of body armor, whereas melee weapons have not made vast improvements, with certain exceptions such as monowire. Going frontal assault with a sword against an armored, trained and cybered professional with an automatic rifle should result in a dead swordsman, otherwise the system gets ridiculous.

Sure. I'm not saying players should do this, or that the game should reward the strategy of having guys with swords running up to guys armed with machines guns. You should get turned into a colander if you try. But if the guy with a contact weapon reaches contact range things should totally change. All the advantages are on the side of the guy with the contact weapon. You don't want to bring a knife to gun fight, but you really also don't want to bring a gun to knife fight.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Heh, maybe I'm biased to the enviroment I live, indeed. And yes, no place is ever secure that can't be breached, it just needs to be difficult enough that:
A- the hacker gives up after a while and looks for greenier pastures (less protected hosts)
B- it takes enough time so that the spider can notice something is trying to breach the host and take counter-measures (unfortunately we don't have Black ICes yet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) )

Anyway, thank you for the enlightment, it seems I indeed work a the outlier of system security (which I now believe that part of the reason comes from the fact that 2 of the owners are from the Academia world).

[Koekepan]

Cracking into a network where management cares about security is in fact extremely difficult and time consuming. It is almost trivially easy to shut out 90% of attacks (in fact, the NSA just recently released a report saying exactly that!) But since the majority of attacks are invisible and the only visible cost is a hit to network performance (if anything), most managers have other priorities. Patching takes time, every office manager is king of his own dominion so installs his own software, everyone with any sway at all gets an admin account just for asking. I'm glad where Shinobi works they have their stuff together, but out of the past 3 places I've worked, none of them I would consider secure.

It's pretty easy to create a little back door application and email it to someone in the organization saying it's the agenda for today's meeting. Send it to 10 people, you get 6 hits. Sure, that's technically social engineering, but it's nothing that requires a pornomancer.

I would add to this that a truly secure environment doesn't rely on passive security (set it up, check it once, leave it forever) but also security monitoring (anomaly checks, general monitoring, intrusion detection systems) and also active security (penetration tests, honeypots, periodic threat assessments) and recovery programs (shut everything down, quarantine the bad stuff, get back up very quickly with known good data sets).

I have only ever once worked in a place that did it more or less right, and even then the information security team (of which I was a member) regularly found people doing stupid stuff. The good news is that we had layered defences, including internally, so that cracking Joe Idiot Developer's box would mostly have given you the crappy source code he was working on, maybe a few others in his group, and not a whole lot else.

[Koekepan]

Heh, maybe I'm biased to the enviroment I live, indeed. And yes, no place is ever secure that can't be breached, it just needs to be difficult enough that:
A- the hacker gives up after a while and looks for greenier pastures (less protected hosts)
B- it takes enough time so that the spider can notice something is trying to breach the host and take counter-measures (unfortunately we don't have Black ICes yet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) )

Anyway, thank you for the enlightment, it seems I indeed work a the outlier of system security (which I now believe that part of the reason comes from the fact that 2 of the owners are from the Academia world).

A) Usually not possible in Shadowrun, because if runners are coming for you, they're coming for you specifically.
B) Should be very possible. Even without black IC, it should be a standard practice to simply drop anomalous hosts and quarantine them. Oh no, the hacker just lost link to his target. Very sad. Pour out a forty for his dreams.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

To this day, I still believe this is the most successful way of hacking:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/zealous_autoconfig.png
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[binarywraith]

Regarding dumpshock, I sort of have to agree with Snow Fox.

Of course, CGL needs to make new editions to keep the line profitable, and probably the worst thing for Shadowrun and dumpshock would be to dwell on one edition forever more.

But it seems like with every edition change, we lose three people for every two new people we gain. I don't know why that is. Maybe the official forums are getting those new folk? Maybe the forum is too curmudgeonly? Maybe SR just isn't making the sales? Maybe it's just me, as someone who doesn't read the SR4 threads? I don't know, and I'd love to be set right. But I just get the sense that with every edition, we're seeing a slew of people who say 'whelp, I'm out! I'm sticking with SRX forever more, so there's nothing further to discuss.'

Maybe if the new editions were more backwards-compatible, it would reduce the drop-out rate.

Honestly, I think the issue has been quality control. SR4 had deep-seated enough problems to spawn SR4A. The CGL products on the run-up to SR5 all had serious editing, story, and game balance problems, as exemplified by the mythical Docks of Bogota. Then SR5 itself... the rules as printed are embarrassing. I wouldn't have released this as an alpha, frankly. Basic proofreading changes never got implemented, discarded playtests were printed verbatim, page refs are universally wrong, multiple versions of the same rules appear in different sections; the list just goes on.

There are no official errata in sight. Bull had to cobble some bare-minimum ones together for Missions, and even then the first released Missions doc intentionally straight-up ignores the wireless hacking by occurring entirely in one of the few places in the entire UCAS with a natural noise rating. Hell, they don't even respond to the rules clarifications thread on the Official Forums, it's a dozen pages or so deep in unanswered questions.

There's really very little to honestly discuss about SR5 because the rules as written are so damn incoherent and sloppily organized that it just rolls down to debating design intent until one of the writers stops by and goes 'Oh, SHIT, that made it into print? Totally wasn't meant to.' Again.

Then, one've the first .pdf splatbooks released, Gun H(e)aven 3? Contains the Rainforest Carbine, a serious contender for most ludicrously mis-statted weapon I've seen published in a decade (disregarding the stats for nukes from War).

[Glyph]

To this day, I still believe this is the most successful way of hacking:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/zealous_autoconfig.png
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Yeah, and sometimes you can be successful with much simpler tactics.

But you know, I would have been happy even with Hollywood hacking, as opposed to the current nonsense that being connected to the Matrix supposedly gives you a better ability to communicate with equipment than a DNI (direct neural interface).

[Wounded Ronin]

Sure. I'm not saying players should do this, or that the game should reward the strategy of having guys with swords running up to guys armed with machines guns. You should get turned into a colander if you try. But if the guy with a contact weapon reaches contact range things should totally change. All the advantages are on the side of the guy with the contact weapon. You don't want to bring a knife to gun fight, but you really also don't want to bring a gun to knife fight.

Fix bayonets.

[toturi]

Fix bayonets.

So... you bring a gun-blade to both fights?

[Bigity]

Into the valley of death rode the six hundred.

[Wounded Ronin]

So... you bring a gun-blade to both fights?

I always wondered why people invest in home defense carbines or shotguns but never seem to mount bayonets on them.

[Tanegar]

I always wondered why people invest in home defense carbines or shotguns but never seem to mount bayonets on them.

You know, that never occurred to me before, but now... damn, why don't people put bayonets on their home defense guns?!

[Elfenlied]

Sure. I'm not saying players should do this, or that the game should reward the strategy of having guys with swords running up to guys armed with machines guns. You should get turned into a colander if you try. But if the guy with a contact weapon reaches contact range things should totally change. All the advantages are on the side of the guy with the contact weapon. You don't want to bring a knife to gun fight, but you really also don't want to bring a gun to knife fight.

The only time the melee person should have an advantage is when they get the jump on ranged person. Even if they close the gap, I expect melee person to have a hard time vs a shooter armed with a CQC capable weapon (carbine, PDW, riot shotgun or pistol) trained in center axis relock or similar techniques.

Note that I'm not against carrying melee weapons in general. Having a tomahawk/combat knife/shock glove within easy access can have its uses. Upon encountering a prepared enemy without you having the element of surprise, the using the gun should always be the optimal solution.

[X-Kalibur]

You know, that never occurred to me before, but now... damn, why don't people put bayonets on their home defense guns?!

Hard to round corners with it.

[Tzeentch]

What, in short, is the state of things these days? Any of the old timers still functioning?

-- The freelancer pool is completely different from what I personally remember. There's a few people that remain from the old days (SR3 being my touchstone) but most have moved on. Some left after Colemangate and others just transitioned to other pursuits.
-- I know some people got flat-out banned from here (I missed all that), but some occasionally comment/crap on Shadowrun at the Gaming Den forum (see the [Shadowrun thread in particular). The official forums are pretty lively, but I still find the Dumpshock forums to be easier to read and use since everything is not spread out into a ton of sub-groups. Threads pop up on rpg.net regarding Shadowrun at a regular basis too.

-- SR5 itself is more of a throwback to classic Shadowrun (SR1-3) which I personally find appealing. Your mileage may vary.

[kzt]

The only time the melee person should have an advantage is when they get the jump on ranged person. Even if they close the gap, I expect melee person to have a hard time vs a shooter armed with a CQC capable weapon (carbine, PDW, riot shotgun or pistol) trained in center axis relock or similar techniques.

Long guns in contact range fights are less that ideal. Once the muzzle is deflected you just have a noisemaker, and you are getting stabbed like the guy has a sewing machine.

What typically happens with someone who brings a gun to knife fight is that the guy with the gun gets kind of focused on the blade, in particular not continuing to get stabbed. Then it usually turns out that guns are not magic wands and that people with knives who are willing to take on a guy armed with a gun tend to be pretty determined and hence keep stabbing until they are physiologically incapacitated. The lesson is that you need shoot them to the ground before they get to you, as having knife guy also die later from your gunshots is usually not a great consolation prize.

I'd expect that someone facing a sword will tend to focus even more on the blade given that that a single hit by a sword is perfectly capable of removing large pieces of their anatomy that they are really fond of.

[kzt]

Hard to round corners with it.

Not always...
http://www.laserlyte.com/products/pb-3
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I actually got handed one of those by Dennis Tueller at a glock armorer class . I think the context was useless junk people hang from their rails.

[DMiller]

Not always...
http://www.laserlyte.com/products/pb-3
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I actually got handed one of those at a glock armorer class by Dennis Tueller. I think the context was useless junk people hang from their rails.

LOL, i clicked the link before I read your full comment... When I saw that my first thought was... "looks neat, but pretty useless". Then I cam back and saw the rest of your comment and laughed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Elfenlied]

Long guns in contact range fights are less that ideal. Once the muzzle is deflected you just have a noisemaker, and you are getting stabbed like the guy has a sewing machine.

You are assuming that the melee person just magically got close to the gun person, and that the gun person is wielding an unwieldy weapon not suited for close quarters

What typically happens with someone who brings a gun to knife fight is that the guy with the gun gets kind of focused on the blade, in particular not continuing to get stabbed. Then it usually turns out that guns are not magic wands and that people with knives who are willing to take on a guy armed with a gun tend to be pretty determined and hence keep stabbing until they are physiologically incapacitated. The lesson is that you need shoot them to the ground before they get to you, as having knife guy also die later from your gunshots is usually not a great consolation prize.

You are assuming that "knife fights" exist outside of the magical world of movies and dueling, and that the knife person somehow magically got into close range with the gun person without getting noticed or attacked first. Outside of an ambush situation, that is not going to happen.

I'd expect that someone facing a sword will tend to focus even more on the blade given that that a single hit by a sword is perfectly capable of removing large pieces of their anatomy that they are really fond of.

Again, this assumes that the swordman magically got close to the gunfighter without taking any damage.

[kzt]

If you can prevent the guy with a contact weapon from reaching you then there is no problem. If he does reach you then the game should present this as really serious problem.

[Elfenlied]

Situations where the melee guy can reach the ranged guy unscathed are usually ambush situations, and I'm perfectly fine with them having the advantage there. They usually earned that advantage by setting up the ambush in the first place, and the rules impose a -3/-1 penalty for the shooter in this scenario, in addition to getting hit by melee guy while they can't defend for the ambush attack.

I just don't want this to be D&D or Star Wars were the default course of action for fighting ranged attackers is "Charge into melee".

[Shinobi Killfist]

Situations where the melee guy can reach the ranged guy unscathed are usually ambush situations, and I'm perfectly fine with them having the advantage there. They usually earned that advantage by setting up the ambush in the first place, and the rules impose a -3/-1 penalty for the shooter in this scenario, in addition to getting hit by melee guy while they can't defend for the ambush attack.

I just don't want this to be D&D or Star Wars were the default course of action for fighting ranged attackers is "Charge into melee".

Sure and if this weren't a game where dude who kicks you in the head is supposed to be a valid archetype you might have a point. Magic/cyber they can change the rules more than a bit. If the rules don't support the fluff and archetypes they make the rules failed hard whether or not it fits our model of reality.

To answer an earlier post of yours, Shadowrun actually veey much is an anime or Joss Whedon game, where swordguy is equally viable to assault rifle guy. Shadowrun has always had ludicrous dodging mechanics where getting into melee unscathed is an option in a very much anime fashion.

[Wounded Ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzKr_uP6lAg

Bayonet charge scene from "We Were Soldiers". In general there's no reason that using firearms and using edged weapons needs to be in any way discordant with history, narrative styles, fiction, verisimilitude, or anything. I think the only problem arises when a RPG system causes a forced dichotomy where someone has to invest so much in melee to be good at it that it ends up making them a one trick pony and then this causes discussion or argument over what exactly a melee guy should be able to do when going toe to toe with a guy with a gun.

If you want something that seems realistic or more in line with contemporary sensibilities, all you need to do is allow characters to be able to be good at both guns and melee without being overly penalized. In real life, I have observed SWAT officers, military personnel, and firearms instructors who have strong interests in or hobbies of MMA, philipino martial arts, western historical fencing, and things like that. It doesn't mean they can't also be elite marksmen. Hand to hand combat might not come up all the time but if it does you know that they will also have an advantage over someone who doesn't also train hand to hand combat or combative sports every weekend.

For an 80s style adventure, I'm okay with a melee specialist, like a Mr. Miyagi character, having such power that he can somehow go toe to toe with gun toting mooks, because that's kind of an 80s cultural trope.

If someone doesn't want that in their game but still wants super powered melee guys who can't charge gun toting mooks head on that's very doable. Look at how that was handled in Batman: Arkham City. Batman is still a badass, but he can't charge gunmen head on most of the time.

I guess the bottom line is that I think this point can easily be adjusted to any game style by editing the damage done by melee versus firearms, or by adjusting skill costs so that characters can be pretty good at both melee and guns as opposed to having to be either one trick ponies or un-optimized cripples. All you have to do is adjust your number values in your rule set and you can easily have whatever style you want.

[Fatum]

RL is how we check what should be, right? If melee weapons were outdated and unneeded, the bayonet wouldn't be there.
It doesn't even have to be a bayonet charge, urban fighting is mostly CQC.