So what happened in the end?, CGL, state of Dumpshock, etc. Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Mind? Blown. Was it an accidental discharge or did one of the bad guys happen to be toting a .45?

It was stupidity on the wounded guys part, and ignorance and carelessness on his replacement on Duty.

Original Guard Loaded and chambered round in the pistol (unauthorized) and then when guard change happened, not only did he not mention it, but the replacement guard one hand checked his pistol (tried to cycle slide one handed to verify gun empty), which he dropped, and because the round was chambered, the pistol fired... round entered the arm of the victim, into the chest cavity, where it bounced around and hit front and rear plates of the body armor, causing, essentially, multiple gunshot wounds. Round eventually exited through the opposite arm from entry. He ended up with entry and exit wounds to both arms (through the side of the body armor) and 4 entry/exit wounds on each facing (front and back) of the torso. Never would have believed it possible had it not happened. Hospital was only a few minutes away from the [Redacted] in Camp [Redacted]. Guy died 45 minutes later. Not really much they could do for the guy (lungs pulverized, heart ruptured, almost all his chest cavity bone structure was damaged or destroyed in some manner (internal bouncing from bones prior/in-between to hitting armor plates) and Massive trauma to the other organs).

1 Round with the equivalent of about a dozen wound paths (.45 FMJ)... Had it been Shadowrun, he would likely have lived, since he survived for 45 minutes in that state. Not sure how, though. It was pretty gruesome.

[binarywraith]

Multi-round solid hits? That might just be a bit of an exaggeration.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/08/world/as...ed=all&_r=0

The fatality rates in Afghanistan for wounded soldiers were well under 10% in 2011, ~13% for rifle and machinegun hits. I've personally met at least one soldier who came back with over 50% full-body 3rd degree burns and is up and walking around again these days. A burn rehab tech I know worked with a couple that were over 90%. Modern medical science is a hell of a thing.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Really, the SR3 combat system was nuanced and awesome, and made gunfights tense and frightening.

Interesting... What you call tense and exciting I always called boring and tedious. Combat took WAY too long in SR3 in my opinion. Combats sped up vastly in SR4. Most of that was due to the Removal of variable TN's. I HATED Variable TN's. Even when I was the benefactor of them more often than not.

That said... I had a LOT of fun in SR3... I just have VASTLY MORE fun in SR4A. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[kzt]

So if we applied SR3 rules to Vietnam and assault rifles had base damage code S, then we would typically see people who get hit with a burst fired by a drafted guy with mediocre skill (marginal success) taking a D wound which seems to feel pretty realistic.

It doesn't yet take into account people having great future body armor, which could still be applied on top of that paradigm.

As it is, the typical armor in the SR3 BBB (e.g. lined duster, armor jacket, whatever) probably reflects 80s soft armor, where you expect that a mondo handgun or a burst from something will chew through it and still injure the wearer. Which is fine as I suppose that's the era when those rules were first written.

In reality having body armor that won't stop the bullet does nothing useful for you. Unlike SR, wearing soft pistol armor when faced with a guy with a rifle just makes you slower to move compared to someone not wearing armor, it won't actually help reduce the damage.

There was an interesting study done of Vietnam USMC casualties comparing death rates due to rifle fire between units that tended to enforce the wearing of flack jackets to those that tended to not. The study showed that the death rate appeared higher among marines who were wearing flack jackets then with those who were not. Presumably this was due to the bullet upsetting due to the jacket and not doing the typical through and through wound typicaly of 7.62x39mm bullets. (Flack jackets were designed to stop artillery and mine fragmentation, not bullets of any kind.) This is at most suggestive as the study couldn't actually determine from records whether the victim was in fact wearing a flack jacket and whether the bullet had penetrated it on entry.

[Epicedion]

Interesting... What you call tense and exciting I always called boring and tedious. Combat took WAY too long in SR3 in my opinion. Combats sped up vastly in SR4. Most of that was due to the Removal of variable TN's. I HATED Variable TN's. Even when I was the benefactor of them more often than not.

That said... I had a LOT of fun in SR3... I just have VASTLY MORE fun in SR4A. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I agree that it took too long, but I think there were better solutions than nuking the site from orbit. A modification to restrict TNs from 2 to 6 and the modification of Combat Pool down to relatively few dice would've helped.

[Fatum]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/08/world/as...ed=all&_r=0

The fatality rates in Afghanistan for wounded soldiers were well under 10% in 2011, ~13% for rifle and machinegun hits. I've personally met at least one soldier who came back with over 50% full-body 3rd degree burns and is up and walking around again these days. A burn rehab tech I know worked with a couple that were over 90%. Modern medical science is a hell of a thing.

Nothing of that contradicts my point, though.

[Tanegar]

...one hand checked his pistol (tried to cycle slide one handed to verify gun empty)...

How do you cycle a slide one-handed? Brace the gun against your thigh/other object? Because that seems breathtakingly stupid.

[Critias]

Depending on the gun, it's possible to do so by holding the grip firmly with the webbing between thumb and forefinger, wrapping your hand around the back of the slide (around the rear sight, basically), and doing a press-check that way.

It's harder to describe than to show (though somehow this guy still makes the video take about a minute, you can skip to about 38-40 seconds in): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOrYM-nuBO4

[Bigity]

I remember several incidents of marines checking for rounds by sliding a pistol against their legs and shooting themselves, or practicing chambering a round one-handed in case they were wounded in one arm - stuff like that.

It was something we made fun of as Air Force guys (and come on, what else were we gonna make fun of them for, not having air conditioning all the time like we did?) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[BishopMcQ]

There have been some huge changes in the way battlefield medicine is being practiced throughout the Iraq wars and in Afghanistan. Survival rates also greatly increased when commanders held their subordinates responsible for actually wearing their body armor which had been a large problem during the early part of the conflict. Now a group of doctors and nurses, driving with twelve backpacks and two humvees can have a forward trauma center built from a raw patch of sand in 60 minutes, with patients on the table being stabilized in that time.

[binarywraith]

Nothing of that contradicts my point, though.

I note, again, the ~13% fatality rate for rifle and machinegun hits quoted there. Another article (here) quotes the overall lethality rate of gunshot wounds in OIF to be 4.9%.

On a more positive note, the lethality of gunshot wounds in conflicts prior to OIF/OEF was estimated at 33% (31), but data from OIF reveals a reduction in lethality following such injuries to 4.6%

This directly contradicts your statement that most people hit with multiple gunshot wounds, even while armored, die.

[Fatum]

Far as I understand, "rifle and machinegun hits" include glancing hits with single bullet and hits on extremities; the case I was talking about is multiple solid hits on the torso - such as rolling a few net successes when shooting a burst.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

How do you cycle a slide one-handed? Brace the gun against your thigh/other object? Because that seems breathtakingly stupid.

It was breathtakingly stupid, as evidenced by what happened when he dropped the weapon. Critias has the right of it, though. Thumb behind the grip, hand on top of slide. Contract hand and the slide will move backwards (though not through a full cycle, but enough to check if chamber is loaded).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I remember several incidents of marines checking for rounds by sliding a pistol against their legs and shooting themselves, or practicing chambering a round one-handed in case they were wounded in one arm - stuff like that.

It was something we made fun of as Air Force guys (and come on, what else were we gonna make fun of them for, not having air conditioning all the time like we did?) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Heh... Yeah, sometime us Marines do some really stupid things. Comes with the territory, I think. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Method]

For what its worth: I'm still lurking around every now and then. RL just got a lot busier, and I'm not all that enamored with SR5.

Knasser: if you happen back around, shoot me a PM. It's good to see you're still kicking around out there, and I'd love to chat about WH40K RPG. We were often of like mind when it came to SR, so I'd be interested to hear your take on DH.

[Sendaz]

It was something we made fun of as Air Force guys (and come on, what else were we gonna make fun of them for, not having air conditioning all the time like we did?) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Don't forget their chow lines compared to what we had in the AF (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) .

[Wounded Ronin]

Holy shit. I hope I never have a round richoet in my insides because I did I did an innocent chamber check. I guess I usually use two hands.

[Blade]

Hi knasser, nice to read you again!

[Stahlseele]

Sorry Blade, you are several days late i am afraid . .

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Don't forget their chow lines compared to what we had in the AF (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) .

Hey, while you may have been the gourmets of the Military (though I would say that the Navy gives you a run for that title), the Corps' chow lines were VERY substantial. I never went hungry, and there were some very good chow halls on Pendleton, if you were willing to make the drives to Mainside or the Training areas. Otherwise, not too shabby. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Holy shit. I hope I never have a round richoet in my insides because I did I did an innocent chamber check. I guess I usually use two hands.

Most intelligent people do not do stupid things with weapons... Most.
Oftentimes, stupidity results in some pretty gruesome things, and when you are messing around with weapons and explosives (got a real doozy of a stupidity story for that one), it can get downright ugly. The Pistol incident was one of the uglier ones. Sadly, it was not the guy who performed the pistol check that was the victim [of the weapon firing] - it was the guy who had just gone off duty. Of course, they were BOTH acting stupidly and irresponsibly. And the Corporal of the Guard was just as guilty, as he failed in his duty during the Guard Change for expediency's sake (he did not get out of the vehicle and change the guard, complete with weapons check, as was his duty).

[Bigity]

Hey, while you may have been the gourmets of the Military (though I would say that the Navy gives you a run for that title), the Corps' chow lines were VERY substantial. I never went hungry, and there were some very good chow halls on Pendleton, if you were willing to make the drives to Mainside or the Training areas. Otherwise, not too shabby. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I've never had really BAD chow in any service's bases (did alot of stuff on joint bases) - but I've yet to find an MRE I would eat unless I had no other choice. I'd be tempted to go shoot some random guy's goat first for grilling.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I've never had really BAD chow in any service's bases (did alot of stuff on joint bases) - but I've yet to find an MRE I would eat unless I had no other choice. I'd be tempted to go shoot some random guy's goat first for grilling.

Indeed... Service Chow halls are pretty good eats. Navy Base Subic though (when it was there) was more than just exceptional... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Heh... MRE's ain't all that bad. Got to be a real gourmet with MRE's in my day. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tanegar]

...and explosives (got a real doozy of a stupidity story for that one)...

Oh, come on! You can't invoke a story without telling it!

[Stahlseele]

MRE's?
That partly edible sludge with the burnable "cookie" that you can otherwise use to patch the hull of a tank?