So what happened in the end?, CGL, state of Dumpshock, etc. Options

[Critias]

Hiya Knasser (if you come back to read this). Good to see you, but sorry to see you take off again. Shoot me a PM with an email, if you've got a kindle and would like a quick read.

And as to...

Critias - always talented, always believing that somehow he could change the system from within if he just worked for CGL long enough.

I appreciate the sentiment, but don't martyr me as some revolutionary just yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) FWIW, I'm not so much out to "change the system," as to "write the best stuff I can, for whoever I can write it for." Just like in my day job I'm not out to "change" academia, I'm just out to make a couple history classes as interesting and informative as I can for my students, y'know? Same thing here. Adepts, the Tir, the Ancients, some urban brawl, lots of fic...I've gotten to do some fun stuff, I think.

I'm trying to tell cool stories, I like the Shadowrun universe and the stories I can tell there, and I'm taking my shots as I see 'em.

[Nath]

This means that anyone trying wireless VR (where VR means simsense, as opposed to a simple headset view) will chew up every available wireless channel in reach. Bear in mind that to supply 4Tbps, you need 4000 independent Gbps channels - good luck doing so in plausible available electromagnetic contexts. [...]
I'm not saying VR is impossible, or that simsense is impossible, nor am I particularly arguing that VR wouldn't be more potent in some meaningful fashion than a keyboard - although there are serious unanswered questions there. All I'm saying is that wireless VR stretches the limits of credibility to and beyond breaking point, and that it was a mistake in any system where computers do not purportedly work on magic. On that front, 4th Ed made a serious mistake, and should have restricted actual VR hacking to a physical connection, even if allowing for an AR hacking environment wirelessly.

Note that in the previous editions, "VR" simply meant "Virtual Reality," which did imply "Realistic Virtuality," let alone in real time. It wasn't anything near simsense level. Icons and background were always obviously computer-generated. Only the few so-called "Ultraviolet" hosts were achieving reality-like level inside the Matrix. Otherwise, Simsense was only available on cable network at home and chips in the streets. The 4th edition did not differ a lot:

Shadowrun, 4th Edition, page 229
How “real” is full VR? Most of it looks computer-generated and –drawn. No matter how astounding—even photo-realistic—the level of detail, it is still obviously computer-created. There are some sections of the Matrix that are virtually indistinguishable from the real world—known as ultraviolet nodes—but those are rare and dangerous places.

Also, most people forget that 3rd edition Matrix book was the first to make cellphone or satlink an option for Matrix access, which put a restriction on up/download speed, thus only affecting file transfer but not the VR experience itself (including the occasional UV host). Simsense file happened to be small enough to still be downloaded easily.

[Neraph]

So many names, all forgotten now, like tears in the rain.

I'll take that as a mention of me. I'm still here, and as far as I know people still remember me.

[Koekepan]

Note that in the previous editions, "VR" simply meant "Virtual Reality," which did imply "Realistic Virtuality," let alone in real time. It wasn't anything near simsense level. Icons and background were always obviously computer-generated. Only the few so-called "Ultraviolet" hosts were achieving reality-like level inside the Matrix. Otherwise, Simsense was only available on cable network at home and chips in the streets. The 4th edition did not differ a lot:

Fair enough, but I think it's obvious to most readers that I'm talking about full immersion, regardless of appearance (and allowing for terminological confusion), which also applies to wireless rigging, as opposed to remote control. What I'm trying to point out is that anyone using wireless for hacking should not get a sim bonus (hot or cold) since the sheer level of data transfer would offer no substantial advantage over a well tuned regular interface, and that riggers trying to genuinely feel the thrum of the fuel pump should absolutely be plugged in to their vehicles.

Also, most people forget that 3rd edition Matrix book was the first to make cellphone or satlink an option for Matrix access, which put a restriction on up/download speed, thus only affecting file transfer but not the VR experience itself (including the occasional UV host). Simsense file happened to be small enough to still be downloaded easily.

This is where it breaks down into nonsense again, if the download is wireless. Bear in mind that we are talking a level of neural override and sensory detail which will let Bog the Trog spend half an hour experiencing what it is like to be Getlaidriel the elven porn starlet while she's being gangbanged by a bunch of dwarves, down to the specifics of Thorin Oakenrod grabbing her delicately pointed elven ears and the smell of his groin, while Gimlet son of Growin's corona rubs against her cervix. Half an hour at our reduced assumption of 4Tbps is 7,2 petabits, or roughly one petabyte allowing for a little bit in protocol and error correction overheads. Even assuming you have magical wireless and nobody near you is exploiting the same base stations much, to the point that you get 1Tbps (hah!) while wandering through a Seattle Arcology, you're looking at a couple of hours. Bear in mind this is where you'd be surrounded by wireless access points on a level beyond pretty much anything except a testbed lab, and bathed in radiation like an experimental test subject, and somehow mysteriously nobody else is around to compete for the same bandwidth, and you are doing nothing else with the available bandwidth either. Unless your definition of `small enough' after laughably huge levels of compression, ludicrous assumptions about electromagnetic radiation, and a treatment of information theory in signalling which is flat-out insane under fantasy-level ideal circumstances is most of a day to download the equivalent of a 90-minute movie, it just ain't so.

If we reduce the aggression of our assumptions in favour of that theory to, say, 100Tb per displayed second of data (much more plausible), 100Gbps under still marvellous but more plausible conditions, we're looking at 1500 hours of downloading a 90-minute movie, or roughly three months. Basically, simsense transmitted wirelessly is not really plausible.

So, to bring this back to the point at hand:

Wireless rigging? Implausible, as a full sim exercise.
Wireless hacking? Sure, just no reason to believe that hot or cold sim would offer any advantage which a set of goggles and twitch game grade controls wouldn't offer. In other words, non-sim VR should work basically as well.
Wired hacking? Now the arguments in favour of sim make a (tiny) bit more sense.

Now, before you wave the flag of Shadowrun-ain't-real-so-magical-technological-leaps-are-all-fine, let me point out that real live brokerage houses today are running into speed-of-light problems in arranging their global networks, and that is not a joke. We're also pushing hard against the kind of wireless bandwidth which can even theoretically be offered by a given wavelength. Alternatively, if you want to argue that the brain doesn't run at 1000Hz even if particular neurons do so the data throughput should be smaller, then great, but where is the huge edge which simsense is supposed to offer? Response time? No, because hacking is actually a decision-making and analytical exercise more than a twitch game. Throughput? No, because sim is more demanding than VR in networking terms. Intuitive data presentations? If they're largely visual the difference between stimulating the cortex directly versus the retina is at best counted in milliseconds (bear in mind that some predigestion of visual data occurs in and around the retina) - and the stimulus is a tiny part of the whole where the brain actually has to digest, interpret and react to the stimulus. Unless your responses are strictly rote or drilled reactions, you need to think about them. Look at kids writing examinations in anything requiring analytical thought. They aren't just scribbling as fast as their pens can move - they're pausing to think, count, examine the data. Sometimes increased writing speed might help - but just as often it would be a meaningless bonus. The typical time saved over a three hour examination would at best be maybe five minutes.

The good news is that all this offers an up-front, clearly explicable set of reasons why wired hacking is better than wireless, especially if you can get your wired connection in a vulnerable part of the target network. Should it require a huge deck? I don't care. I see no inherent reason a cyberdeck should be larger than a laptop.

The bad news is that it makes it very clear that SR4 style wireless matrix hacking introduced a whole new layer of technological bulldrek into the milieu because it apparently dawned on someone somewhere that smartphones were getting popular.

[Elfenlied]

Bear in mind that we are talking a level of neural override and sensory detail which will let Bog the Trog spend half an hour experiencing what it is like to be Getlaidriel the elven porn starlet while she's being gangbanged by a bunch of dwarves, down to the specifics of Thorin Oakenrod grabbing her delicately pointed elven ears and the smell of his groin, while Gimlet son of Growin's corona rubs against her cervix.

Too much information!

[Lindt]

There are times...

Bitter olds vets.
Remembering the days of the dead.
Wondering about the gone.
Thinking about the past.

[Bigity]

My biggest gripe about the other forums is they are using the worst forum software I have ever had the displeasure of coming across.

It's terrible.

[Koekepan]

Too much information!

Yes. Much too much for wireless.

For our hard core, superdetailed, MAXrotica™ experience, wireless won't cut it. We take you all the way into the action.

All rights reserved, Horizon Entertainment Division.

[DeathStrobe]

/snip

In your world hacking would be the hacker sending out a few million Matrix messages to random people about how a Nigerian Prince needs a few thousand nuyen to get a valuable item out of customs. Yeah...that sure sounds fun. Way cooler then decker duals.

[Snow_Fox]

it's just my opinion but the edition changes are discouraging people from posting. I know it certainly is for me. I use to post a few times a day but as 3 went to 4 , 4 to 4.1 or what ever they called it 4 whatever to 5 I feel left behind. I can do just fine with 3rd ed rules as do my group with the 4th ed decking. but each time they change the rules and things like damage and spell casting I feel more and more disconnected and less of a reason to post or even an ability to do so. The fact that they seem to want us to shell out for all new core books every 5 years gets damn expensive

so I come here for the over stories and soft stuff and ideas but see little reason to post in the 'what rule do I..." threads the way I use to. I suspect there could be a lot of the older hands like me who do that.

[Koekepan]

In your world hacking would be the hacker sending out a few million Matrix messages to random people about how a Nigerian Prince needs a few thousand nuyen to get a valuable item out of customs. Yeah...that sure sounds fun. Way cooler then decker duals.

While I take your point concerning duels, there are other ways to take it. Even if phishing or some variant thereof were an element of what a decker might do as part of preparation, that wouldn't really go on-screen, as it were. While matrix duels might not be part of the whole plan, a less metaphorical aspect of it certainly could be.

On the other hand, you could visualise it in an arbitrary VR interface any way you wanted to.

[Cain]

I even found a post from Cain still raving about his "Mr. Lucky build" and how you can break the Matrix even though he's been proved wrong at least three times to my knowledge on both subjects. He just is temporarily banned or subsides when his thread is locked and now three years later, I'm still finding posts from him in threads about 5th posting the same bitter lies. Quite possibly one of the saddest things I've ever seen.

I'm still here, you know.

[toturi]

Right now, none of the splat books are out. There is only so much you can gripe/poke/break in the main book. The new edition is in, but not all of the players are on the field.

[Elfenlied]

Right now, none of the splat books are out. There is only so much you can gripe/poke/break in the main book. The new edition is in, but not all of the players are on the field.

I really hope the matrix books offers extensive optional rules to make the matrix more 4th edition like, undoing the recent changes. Probably not going to happen with the current staff, though.

[Tanegar]

Bear in mind that we are talking a level of neural override and sensory detail which will let Bog the Trog spend half an hour experiencing what it is like to be Getlaidriel the elven porn starlet while she's being gangbanged by a bunch of dwarves, down to the specifics of Thorin Oakenrod grabbing her delicately pointed elven ears and the smell of his groin, while Gimlet son of Growin's corona rubs against her cervix.

I am totally going to base a run around Getlaidriel. That name is too good to pass up.

[Wounded Ronin]

it's just my opinion but the edition changes are discouraging people from posting. I know it certainly is for me. I use to post a few times a day but as 3 went to 4 , 4 to 4.1 or what ever they called it 4 whatever to 5 I feel left behind. I can do just fine with 3rd ed rules as do my group with the 4th ed decking. but each time they change the rules and things like damage and spell casting I feel more and more disconnected and less of a reason to post or even an ability to do so. The fact that they seem to want us to shell out for all new core books every 5 years gets damn expensive

so I come here for the over stories and soft stuff and ideas but see little reason to post in the 'what rule do I..." threads the way I use to. I suspect there could be a lot of the older hands like me who do that.

Seriously. 4th edition was such a turn off that I stopped paying attention to the rules and settings.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Ha, this thread appeared serendipitiously for me. Having pretty much abandoned Shadowrun few months later after knasser (I think it was spy games the last book I saw by then) I had the opportunity of finding a Shadowrun 5th edition while visiting my cousin in Montreal, so, I bought the book, I actually liked some of the changes (limits of success was a great idea, as well as turning programs rankless and make them give boni to specific actions).
So, after returning home, decided to see how good ol' dumpshock was faring.
I actually liked the changes for matrix and while they may be only lightly firmed on how real hacking goes, well, real hacking is BOOORING and is nowhere near as was displayed by the old nineties movie 'Hackers' (with Angelina Jolie barely legal, since we are talking about Getlaidriel (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).
My final point is, the breaking point for me buying the book was recognizing so many of the writers' names from here, otherwise, I would have put it back on the shelf.

[Backgammon]

The fact that they seem to want us to shell out for all new core books every 5 years gets damn expensive

It was EIGHT YEARS between SR4 and SR5. I had time to finish university, get a job, get promoted a few times, get married and have a child between the two. Why don't you spread out the cost of ALL the books you bought over eight years. Or better yet, divide that over the number of hours Shadowrun has entertained you. Compare that to ANYTHING else: going to the movies, the price of your cable subscription, whatever the hell else you can think of. Then see if it's still "damn expensive".

If it is, you've made mistakes in your life, and that's not Shadowrun's fault.

[fistandantilus4....]

A lot of things have changed around here over the last couple of years. I think that Snow Fox isn't far off, that 5th edition has been a part of that. Think back to 4th edition though, and there was a lot of people raising a stink (including me) when it first hit. We've got enough editions now that you can roll with whichever one you want. But I think the issues with the license and who's working it has affected the game pretty seriously. Of course, that may just be our little corner of the internet talking.

I'm pretty grateful for those that are still willing to work through the difficulties, like Our Boy Crit, and still put out good stuff despite all the people that have left to do other things. It's been neat seeing some people step up as other people have left. But there's still a lot we just don't see anymore. I still miss Fortune, mfb, and of course Knasser.

Fistandantilus always too nice to be a mod

I'm still here, just more quiet these days. I've got a lot going on personally, and 5th edt, which is the main hot topic, hasn't sold me yet.

I will say for Dumpshock as a whole, on our side anyway, things have been a lot easier to handle. I'll always like Frank Trollman, although he was a huge pain in the ass, quite frankly. But he had a lot of interesting, intelligent things to say. Of course, I miss Doc Funk, AH, and SL James too. Some were more liked than others. But for whatever reason , the number of flame fests has been way down. So that's nice. I'm busy with other things lately so I rarely get the chance to log in, but the latest mods are doing great with it. Redjack has really taken the ball and ran with it, and does a lot to keep us going, which is awesome to see. Honestly, any issues with the software you need to direct with him, cause I know jack all about it. What I do know is that what we've got works for the money. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I still love DS, even if I'm not on as frequently. Personally I like it more for the fact that there is an official SR forum out there, and we're still here. We're not concerned about making CGL happy or unhappy. DS has been here through a lot of companies now, and we're not going anywhere. The mods try to keep the peace and keep it open for Freelancers, guys like Bull who skirt a couple of different lines (he's more nimble than you'd think for his size (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ), and readers and players who just want straight answers and to argue stuff out. I think it's become a more relaxed environment lately, which I appreciate. Hopefully guys and gals out there like Knasser can still find things they enjoy , without having to worry so much about the politics behind it.

[Prime Mover]

I'm a fan of shadowrun, nots it's owners. Authors, developers or varied editions. Played since my first edition arrived in the mail and can assure you it wasn't any mechanics or reality based tech that turned me into an SR junkie for life.
It inspired me as a storyteller. It's strangely insightful view of the future, fantasy elements which let my players access it from a D&D background and the ability to look into the future and still be living in past due to vitas and the first crash twisting history. The shooting helped.
New editions mean new concepts and new mistakes.
1st edition wow umm it was a first edition.
2nd edition cleaner and nearly daily games for several years endears this version to me.
3rd edition walls of text...little art, again cleaner but a painful read.
4th edition someone got chocolate in my peanut butter. Lots new concepts also lots of right moves. (And growing pains)
5th edition obviously made with the best intentions, some rollback, more new concepts. Made by people who care even if you don't share their vision.

I was here last edition, probably be here next edition. As a GM who's run dozens of systems for dozens of people I always find myself coming back to SR and it's fan base . Digging through dumpshock is nearly as fun as getting that box of 1st edition books out of storage for inspiration.

[Koekepan]

I am totally going to base a run around Getlaidriel. That name is too good to pass up.

All I ask is that you tell us how it goes. We want to know about how Gimlet squeezes into her elven ring.

Or at least about the escapades of the group she hired to extract her from her current contract so that she could go independent.

[Koekepan]

I actually liked the changes for matrix and while they may be only lightly firmed on how real hacking goes, well, real hacking is BOOORING and is nowhere near as was displayed by the old nineties movie 'Hackers' (with Angelina Jolie barely legal, since we are talking about Getlaidriel (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

There are lots of things which are boring. Picking locks over and over and over is boring. Spending hour after hour after hour lifting weights or running is boring. Shooting the same target again and again and again is boring. Waiting in a surgery while a cyberdoc performs microneurosurgery on your knee is boring. Standing in front of a mirror learning to deliver exactly the right expression in exactly the right way is boring. Reading the latest hydraulic diagram for the fifteenth revision on the damn stupid drone model's parts is boring. And yet shadowrunners do all these things if they want that edge. This is why these things happen off-camera.

A sweating hacker hastily splicing into an optic fibre link while the clock ticks so that he can deliver the carefully tuned exploit so that he can control the secured freight elevator and let the delivery team escape with the prototype without being caught on camera, and still have time to evacuate himself with the infiltration expert through the company's laundry chutes is not boring.

It is up to the game master to work with the parts which are engaging.

[Wounded Ronin]

All I ask is that you tell us how it goes. We want to know about how Gimlet squeezes into her elven ring.

Or at least about the escapades of the group she hired to extract her from her current contract so that she could go independent.

Heh, all we need is seedy SR pr0n appearing on Google image search.

[X-Kalibur]

I ran possibly the most grimdark game any of my players had ever played using DH 1st. I actually managed to grim a couple of them out which was amazing as normally they're quite sociopathic when it comes to RPGs.

Ironically enough, for all my complaining about designing games for "old men", I'm becoming something of a curmudgeon myself. Only the other way around - I also have the same issue with the new edition of DH (it's currently in Beta). The original Beta was innovative and new and played really well in my tests. But there were howls of protests from some of the existing players because it was different and not backwards compatible. They loudly demanded something like Only War. So now the DH2 version that is coming out is essentially Only War: Inquisitor Edition. Everywhere I look, it all seems to be about placating the Old Guard. Which is pretty ironic as I stared Shadowrun with 1st edition and my experience with Warhammer RPGs goes all the way back to the original WHFRP where my elf apprentice died in his first combat at the hands of a goblin with a shortbow.

Every year as I get older, I get grumpier and grumpier about the way things aren't changing how they used to.

SR5 -> SR2/3 being a case in point.

Our jobs as we get older are to be more grumpy and curmudgeon-y. Good to see you stop by for a quick fling, knasser. For my own money, I found Rogue Trader and Only War to be the better of the settings and rules (in that order) for the FFG titles.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

There are lots of things which are boring. Picking locks over and over and over is boring. Spending hour after hour after hour lifting weights or running is boring. Shooting the same target again and again and again is boring. Waiting in a surgery while a cyberdoc performs microneurosurgery on your knee is boring. Standing in front of a mirror learning to deliver exactly the right expression in exactly the right way is boring. Reading the latest hydraulic diagram for the fifteenth revision on the damn stupid drone model's parts is boring. And yet shadowrunners do all these things if they want that edge. This is why these things happen off-camera.

A sweating hacker hastily splicing into an optic fibre link while the clock ticks so that he can deliver the carefully tuned exploit so that he can control the secured freight elevator and let the delivery team escape with the prototype without being caught on camera, and still have time to evacuate himself with the infiltration expert through the company's laundry chutes is not boring.

It is up to the game master to work with the parts which are engaging.

All of those stuff is either practice/training for something else or work.
Picking a lock while the rest of the team is giving you cover fire against a bunch of red samurais is not boring. Running for your life is not boring neither is lifting a barrel or something to blockade a passage from pursuers. Shooting the same practice target is boring. Shooting someone who's shooting you back OR running towards you to split you in half with a monofilamente sword is not.

Anyway, my point is, hacking in real life has not the drama you just mentioned, so that's why I don't mind if the matrix/hacking is shown somewhat impossible to how it should actually work because if it did, the game would be like this:

[ Spoiler ]

Ok, after 2 days of pinging the target you intend to see how its protocol communications work and during this time the target's spider didn't notice your pings to change said protocols, you fire your brute force software that finds a weak password and gives you entry after 5 minutes. Since you did this during the lunchbreak, the spider was not in front of the computer to see the automated emails of the site telling him that many access requisitions were made in such a short time. You gain access to the computer, copy the file you want, leave a little gift before disconecting and voilà. You got the emails of everyone who ever bought and Adobe Software...